black copper Marans vs. black Marans

[amazondoc]

Someone asked in another thread about black copper vs. black. I was preparing a response when that other thread got locked, so here it is --

Quote:
Visually, there is sometimes no difference between the plumage on a true black Marans and a black copper that is simply too dark. And, in fact, sometimes very dark black copper Marans get sold as "black".

Genetically, there is a BIG difference between the two. Black copper birds are "based on" (have the E allele) E(R). This is called the "birchen" allele, and technically black copper birds are gold birchen birds. True black Marans, however, are based on E -- referred to as "extended black".

I *believe* you can get a clue about which E allele the bird has by examining the legs and feet -- but somebody else will have to chime in here, as that is still beyond my range of knowledge!

 

[Krys109uk]

I think it can be pretty difficult to discern which birds are dark gold birchen(ER) birds & which birds are extended black (E) birds lacking melanisers. Or 'split' (heterozygous) for the two.

The gene which makes the copper black copper as opposed to a simple gold birchen is mahogany (Mh). When outcrossing has occurred this gene can (& often has) been lost. When Mh is lost the hackles will be a bright brassy gold rather than a nice rich copper colour.

When people talk about "How much copper is too much copper" I interpret "too much" when there is copper in places where copper is not stated by the standard.

In my experience, the presence of extra colour, in places where colour is not supposed to be, can be an indication of the bird being 'split' for wheaten (eWh).

 

[CHICKEN little 1]

Amazondoc wrote: Someone asked in another thread about black copper vs. black. I was preparing a response when that other thread got locked, so here it is --



ruth wrote:
I also understood that they must have a certain amount of copper to be considered the Black Copper but isn't there also just a Black Marans and how do you tell the difference. As I mentioned, some in Jesse's flock have no copper.

Visually, there is sometimes no difference between the plumage on a true black Marans and a black copper that is simply too dark. And, in fact, sometimes very dark black copper Marans get sold as "black".

Genetically, there is a BIG difference between the two. Black copper birds are "based on" (have the E allele) E(R). This is called the "birchen" allele, and technically black copper birds are gold birchen birds. True black Marans, however, are based on E -- referred to as "extended black".

I *believe* you can get a clue about which E allele the bird has by examining the legs and feet -- but somebody else will have to chime in here, as that is still beyond my range of knowledge!


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So what your saying is that even though there is no coppering in the feathers they are still Black Coppers without the Marans standard for feathering. ?

I have a couple of hens that were hatched from Black Copper eggs They have Black eyes,and their feet are more black looking than a slate color. Would this come from BC,and Black Marans crossing? Do Black Marans have black eyes,and blackish feet? I've never seen a true Black Marans. I guess thats why I'am asking. I know some breeders keep BC's,and Blacks together,and also BC's,and Blue Coppers together.

Yep I'am still a newbee!

 

[Krys109uk]

I have a couple of hens that were hatched from Black Copper eggs They have Black eyes,and their feet are more black looking than a slate color. Would this come from BC,and Black Marans crossing? Do Black Marans have black eyes,and blackish feet? I've never seen a true Black Marans.

Black eyes come more naturally with both E (black) & ER (copper black) birds but the correct colour for both is orangy-red. It would need to be bred for by selection.

The (dark) cuckoo marans are E birds (black) with barring.​

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Right. Genetically, they are black coppers. Phenotypically (visually), they don't meet the standard for black coppers.

Sometimes, black "black coppers" are sold as black Marans. But they really shouldn't be, since the genetics are so different from true black Marans. It just confuses the issue even further!

I have a couple of hens that were hatched from Black Copper eggs They have Black eyes,and their feet are more black looking than a slate color. Would this come from BC,and Black Marans crossing?

No. It's not from any crossing of varieties, it's just from that black copper line having too many melanizing genes.

I've never seen a true Black Marans. I guess thats why I'am asking. I know some breeders keep BC's,and Blacks together,and also BC's,and Blue Coppers together.

True black Marans seem to be pretty rare right now, but a few folks are working to change that.

Black and black copper Marans shouldn't be kept together, since they are different genetically. However, there's no real problem with keeping black and blue coppers together, because the difference between them is only the Bl gene. In a blue copper breeding program, black coppers will almost always be produced as a natural part of the program.​

 

[Krys109uk]

No. It's not from any crossing of varieties, it's just from that black copper line having too many melanizing genes.

While this is true of the French birds it cannot be said to be true of a lot of the Marans in USA. It is precisely one of the problems people are having.

In US all manner of birds have been crossed & recrossed when proper European birds were very thin on the ground. that is why there is such a mess.
Phenotypically there is little difference between E birds & ER birds with rather more melanisers (blackening genes). Conversely E birds which have lost their melanisers can look very much like ER birds.​

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
While this is true of the French birds it cannot be said to be true of a lot of the Marans in USA. It is precisely one of the problems people are having.

I should clarify my statement --

The black color is not due to the crossing of varieties. But "black" black coppers and true black birds have been crossed, leading to the additional confusion I mentioned earlier.

Conversely E birds which have lost their melanisers can look very much like ER birds.

Now this is interesting, and not something I had considered. Do E (extended black) birds really need additional melanizers in order to appear black? Doesn't the E gene do the trick on its own?​

 

[Krys109uk]

Now this is interesting, and not something I had considered. Do E (extended black) birds really need additional melanizers in order to appear black? Doesn't the E gene do the trick on its own?

Extended black (E) is not sufficient to make a bird black. Melanisers are needed. A E birds without melanisers looks pretty similar to ER birds. The females often look mostly black with some colour on sides the hackles.
ER birds without melanisers have coloured lacing most especially in the breast. In Marans extra melanisers have been used & the lacing no longer shows.....so they look very like E birds without melanisers.

The crossing to completely different breeds, seemed to take place with Marans more frequently 5+ years ago. It was presumably, in an attempt to mimic the copper blacks which had not made it over the pond at that time. Unfortunately these birds, which were called Marans, though IMO this could only be considered loosely true, are or have at times been crossed into the genuine French birds, which have now found their way over here. wich is why there is so much more trouble with French type copper blacks & other colours than there is in other countries.​

 

[onthespot]

I have three pullets grown out from an intentional, controlled crossing of my best Copper Black roo on some Ray Valentine-type black hens. I got more chicks hatched, but just kept the three with black all over, non-black eyes and feathered shanks. I will cross those back on my clean legged black roo and hope for more feathered shanks and no copper hackles. Too bad he as black eyes... oh well, just keep on keeping on. I would like to get a pen of feather legged, typey, reddish bay eyed, good egg color laying marans started up. I'm thinking it will take me years. I hope no one thinks less of me for mixing color types.

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Hmmm.

What melanizers are we talking about here? It doesn't take Ml or cha, in any case.

ER birds without melanisers have coloured lacing most especially in the breast. In Marans extra melanisers have been used & the lacing no longer shows.

Right. Lacing in the breast is a common problem in American black coppers, because some lines lack proper melanizers.

The crossing to completely different breeds, seemed to take place with Marans more frequently 5+ years ago. It was presumably, in an attempt to mimic the copper blacks which had not made it over the pond at that time. Unfortunately these birds, which were called Marans, though IMO this could only be considered loosely true, are or have at times been crossed into the genuine French birds, which have now found their way over here. wich is why there is so much more trouble with French type copper blacks & other colours than there is in other countries.

Is there really more trouble, or do we simply discuss it more openly?​