Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[cluck-cluck]

http://www.fayrehalefarm.com/believ...itage-breed-bred-for-cold-weather-production/

Have you read this site?

I know a fellow who is a very good breeder of this breed in the north. If you would like to get a hold of him send me a personel message and I will get you his name and contact numbers.

At this point, I'd rather learn from reading what I can online because to be honest, I may not be able to respond to good advice, making me feel like I'd be annoying someone who spent time (not just on the boards) teaching me. I have such limited space, I'm planning on treading water for a long time until retirement. So some things are just not possible, like hatching a lot, growing out cockerels, etc... Just not gonna happen for a long while, but my dream is to get somewhere where I can do just that!

He has some wild speculation on his site. He thinks the whites are the only Chanticleers and the other colors are imposters slipped into the Standard by the wicked folks at the APA. On line it is not about the breeds, it is about the "story" about the breeds. That's what helps sell birds.....ya have to have a good "story" and he has one.

Walt.

LOL, yah, I wonder if I'm chasing a dream that never was? A tophat that was truely duel purpose? And gave a decent size carcass? Who knows? Could have been another tall tale to sell birds 100 years ago!

But Walt I had this really cool vision about the APA guys dressed in suits and kicking down doors demanding that breeders do things their way! Was gonna make a movie script about this and everything, this dudes site has opened my eyes man! Who do you want to play you in the movie?

I vote for Ed Asner! LOL

 

[fowlman01]

At this point, I'd rather learn from reading what I can online because to be honest, I may not be able to respond to good advice, making me feel like I'd be annoying someone who spent time (not just on the boards) teaching me. I have such limited space, I'm planning on treading water for a long time until retirement. So some things are just not possible, like hatching a lot, growing out cockerels, etc... Just not gonna happen for a long while, but my dream is to get somewhere where I can do just that!
LOL, yah, I wonder if I'm chasing a dream that never was? A tophat that was truely duel purpose? And gave a decent size carcass? Who knows? Could have been another tall tale to sell birds 100 years ago!
I vote for Ed Asner! LOL

People back in the old days came up with goofy info too. That is where some of this stuff comes from. If it is old writings, it does not mean they are true. There were chicken shysters long before the internet. I am currently arguing with a newby about what the Romans said about Dorkings. Neither one of us was there, but I tend to believe what the Romans said as they were there....and this person hardly knows one end of a chicken form the other, so I don't know why they are so sure of some things said back then.

Again....it is the story that makes for good sales of chickens, not so much the way they look these days. Everyone wants something with a good story or something that is supposedly rare.

Walt



Ed Asner is a lot rounder than I am.

 

[cluck-cluck]

LOL, yah, but he fits the fowl (taken as grumpy) part, LOL Not that you're grumpy

LOL,

I must admit, I do like the fancy feathering (top hats, beard and muffs), and like the clean feet, but what I really want is duel purpose. I'm not sure if this is going to work, though, because when it gets warm around here, it's my Crevecoeurs that pant and hold their wings out the most... so if they turn out not to thrive in the heat this summer, I'll have to rethink this?? But I'm a total newb, and I'm giving myself leeway to make mistakes. It's been really fun so far

 

[capayvalleychick]

I vote for Ed Asner! LOL

That's so wrong! Have you ever seen Walt? If Paul Newman were still around, that would be more like it.

 

[lualshannon]

At this point, I'd rather learn from reading what I can online because to be honest, I may not be able to respond to good advice, making me feel like I'd be annoying someone who spent time (not just on the boards) teaching me. I have such limited space, I'm planning on treading water for a long time until retirement. So some things are just not possible, like hatching a lot, growing out cockerels, etc... Just not gonna happen for a long while, but my dream is to get somewhere where I can do just that!
LOL, yah, I wonder if I'm chasing a dream that never was? A tophat that was truely duel purpose? And gave a decent size carcass? Who knows? Could have been another tall tale to sell birds 100 years ago!
I vote for Ed Asner! LOL

Ad Asner? Well, actually, Walt looks like younger version of Clint Eastwood!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

LOL, yah, I wonder if I'm chasing a dream that never was? A tophat that was truely duel purpose? And gave a decent size carcass? Who knows? Could have been another tall tale to sell birds 100 years ago!

I know next to nothing about Crevoucours, but I know that the history of the Houdan, another historic French crested breed, is well enough documented that this is definitely not in question.

I think that something many forget is that these breeds reached their pinnacle through decades, maybe even hundreds of years, of evolution and selection for distinct traits. It takes relatively little time to lose the majority of those traits. In some case, you with Crevies and me with Houdans, it's like someone hit the reset button on the evolution of these breeds and we have to start over. It won't happen over night, but I sure hope it doesn't take hundreds of years, either.

Also, Walt, I found the comments regarding Fayrhale Chanteclers vaguely demeaning. He does not insinuate any such thing or think APA is "evil" etc. He merely points out, as is common knowledge in the breed, that White Chanteclers and Partridge Chanteclers (Albertans) were developed completely independently utilizing different breeds and evolving different traits. Essentially they ARE different breeds and should never be crossed unless your goal is a crossbreed and you sell the offspring as such. It is confusing have these two different breeds carry the same name.

Now, the real question is are there other examples of this in the APA, or were most varieties derived from the original breed or at least with the same or similar parent stock? Of course most color varieties are not very compatible and will throw off-colors if crossed, so that is not the question or point here.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Ad Asner? Well, actually, Walt looks like younger version of Clint Eastwood!

???? Really! I honestly never thought of Clint while watching Walt walk past. Maybe physically, now that I think of it...

 

[fowlman01]

I know next to nothing about Crevoucours, but I know that the history of the Houdan, another historic French crested breed, is well enough documented that this is definitely not in question.

I think that something many forget is that these breeds reached their pinnacle through decades, maybe even hundreds of years, of evolution and selection for distinct traits. It takes relatively little time to lose the majority of those traits. In some case, you with Crevies and me with Houdans, it's like someone hit the reset button on the evolution of these breeds and we have to start over. It won't happen over night, but I sure hope it doesn't take hundreds of years, either.

Also, Walt, I found the comments regarding Fayrhale Chanteclers vaguely demeaning. He does not insinuate any such thing or think APA is "evil" etc. He merely points out, as is common knowledge in the breed, that White Chanteclers and Partridge Chanteclers (Albertans) were developed completely independently utilizing different breeds and evolving different traits. Essentially they ARE different breeds and should never be crossed unless your goal is a crossbreed and you sell the offspring as such. It is confusing have these two different breeds carry the same name.

Now, the real question is are there other examples of this in the APA, or were most varieties derived from the original breed or at least with the same or similar parent stock? Of course most color varieties are not very compatible and will throw off-colors if crossed, so that is not the question or point here.

Sorry.......it wasn't meant to be vague. How they were put together in the early 1900's and how they are put together now are two different things and the breeds in the APA SOP are not put in in an "arbitrary" fashion as he states. He knows nothing of how/why they were recognized. The way they were originated back then was not all that different IMO and it certainly has been changed over the years as other breeds have changed. As I stated...it's a good story for him. I guess the questions is: Why do all the varieties look the same except for the color??? The APA does not have a different breed description for the other colors...why do you think that is? If a buff or partridge doesn't look like the whites physically they are not going to do well in a show. It's really not a big deal, but when someone comes out of the woodwork and makes these statements that concern the APA I'm going to respond. I would not cross the colors either, but not because of the same reasons you state. The use of a Cochin is the only significant difference in how they were created (if you are only talking about breeds) and that influence is long gone.

Walt

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hmmm....

So, in APA culture breeds are defined by type, literally the way they are shaped. Of course there are breeds that preceed the APA Standard, but they were more or less recognized by type, too, which, I am sure, lent itself as confirmation that conformation as breed definer was a good choice. "Albertans" and Chanteclers are the same breed, because they're the same type, and the arguments about slightly divergent feather quality aren't all that convincing. These differences are almost undoubtedly strain-based. They were developed divergently, but they are the same bird in black silhouette, thus they are the same breed. The story of how and why they're different just adds drama to the mix, but it does not justify any notions of "purity" or "separateness".

There's really no true history of purity in poultry, if purity means blood purity. Instead, we have purity of type. This also explains one of the primary reasons for which breeders are "typically" (

) so bothered by hatchery stock. Hatchery stock is usually typical mongrels. They may, or may not, have purity of blood from an original purchase to establish the given hatchery's breeding flock, but usually the birds sold are consider base mongrels because they are type-mongrels.

The difference between Partridge and White Chanteclers is not different than the differences between most modern, composite breed varieties. If one studies the Buff Plymouth Rock compared to the Barred Plymouth Rock, one sees the same story of divergence. Indeed, one could assert that blood-wise a Buff Plymouth Rock is much closer to a Buff Wyandotte than it is to a Silver-Pencilled Plymouth Rock.

If a breed exists in multiple varieties, i.e. most breeds, than there is a clear history of crossing, which is how the varieties exist at all. Any post mid-1800's breeds: Rocks, Reds, Wyandottes, Orpingtons, Marans, Chanteclers, Buckeyes, Faverolles, Barnevelders, etc. are all technically standardized mongrels. Even the ancient breeds, such as Dorkings and Old English Games, are assuredly impure for blood. White Dorkings are one of the oldest pure varieties available, but there were practices of outcrossing them to White OEGs, and, in the mid-1800's some poultry writers promoted outcrossing them to Light Brahmas in order to import some of that famed Asiatic hardiness.

It's usually recommended that folks not outcross primarily because it opens up a genetic can of worms. However, when done in an extremely informed manner with a facility that is capacious enough to allot for the numbers needed and the stomach enough to accept the culling required, careful outcrossing can be an excellent way to restore a decimated breed. Indeed, some of the very best birds I know are the product of careful grading by serious (read quasi-obsessed) and extremely disciplined breeders.

 

[fowlman01]

Good post Yellow House.

Distilled down .......the APA SOP only requires the bird to "look" like the description. New breeds/varieties are only required to breed 50% true. IMO that is too lenient, but some of the very same people that have a "story" will whine about the APA being too strict. Some will be OK with that and some won't be. There is this weird kind of snobbery that goes on with the newbies that I don't quite understand. In some ways it is more demanding than the SOP itself. It took a while but I did realize that the "story" is more important to these folks than the birds themselves.

From 2-5 times a year I get correspondence about admitting some breed to the SOP with a great story and they become annoyed when I tell them they have to put 50 in a show and that they all have to meet the breed descriptions AND color description. Every so often I become annoyed by these experts who don't want real Standards applied. If it can be this or it can be that and some guy said that is the way it should be, I'm supposed to say..OK.....ah...no. I guess that is why I don't have patience with these less than 10 year "experts". I have been doing this for 50 years and certainly don't think of myself as an "expert". It is just not that easy folks. We are always learning......and I have learned some things from newbies right here on BYC. I have a fellow now that it PMing me about a possible error in the Hamburg beak description and as of now I think he may be correct. As far as I know he has no story.
I'll ask.

Walt