Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Yellow House Farm]

So, as of today, I've only gotten hatchery chicks, nothing from a breeder and I plan on an out-crossing to a dorking to correct size and shape. At least with what I've seen so far, I just don't see progress in size any other way without spending 100 years selective breeding for size, and I don't have that kind of time, LOL.. These birds are seriously under sized!. And often, their legs are too long. I've made a plan, and I hope it works

Now, if anyone is willing to talk about their experiences out-crossing to improve a breed, I'd love to hear about your experience? I know it's almost a taboo subject to some people?

Hmmm....an outcross may be the only realistic way to bring them back, but it wouldn't be easy. It would take an outstandingly firm capacity and willingness to cull--hard and in volume. There are some seriously divergent genetics going on here.

Before you go here go any further. This isn't for the faint hearted "I like to cuddle my chicks" person....

1. Get the best Crevecoeurs cockerels possible. I don't think any are any good right now. The fact that one strain might be slightly better than another is of little importance. It's all the barrel of the bucket. Creves are among the rarest of all poultry. To that end, you need a partner or two or three, because your set up won't give you the space you need alone. Get the largest possible order of cockerels from MMCM. Raise them up, at eight to 12 weeks weigh them and check their earlobes. Keep the best; then cull the rest maybe even have another order coming.
2. I'd get three to four White Dorking pullets that are a bit long in the leg. White Dorkings are black underneath, which is what you want, and it's easier to pull a V-comb through a rose comb than a single comb. Your Dorkings must have red earlobes because white in the earlobes is too prevalent in Crevecoeurs right now. If your Dorkings have white earlobes, the whole project will be for naught. Breed your three or four best cockerels to your three or four Dorking pullets.
3. The first year you'd need to hatch every one to two weeks for four to six months, depending on how the black comes through. Hopefully you can cull for this at the incubator door. Hopefully in each hatch you'll have a portion of solid blacks.
4. The fifth toe (Po) is dominant so chances are all of your chicks would have 5 toes, but they'd be split for 4 toes (po+); so, you won't fix the toe issue until the second generation. Muffs and beards are dominant; so most of the first generation will have some sort of muff, but they will vary in quality, you want the best you can get. Chances are you won't get any with a full crest, but most will have a Spitzhauben like tuft. Cull for earlobes. So, your first generation finalists will be black, with 5 toes, a muff, and a tuft with red earlobes.
5. Second year. Do one or two breeding patterns. In the first, breed your biggest, most vigorous F1 pullets, with bright red earlobes back to your Crevecoeur cocks. You'd do this a lot. In each hatch you should get a portion of black chicks with beard, muff, four toes, and an obvious crest. It might be 20 to 30% of the hatch. Cull everything else. Be careful to toe-punch everything so you know who comes from whom and so that you can plan future pairings. Raise as many of these as possible. This would be your surest pairing. You'd need to raise as many of these as you can. This is where having a partner(s) is cool. After you've hit quota, you can pair F1 crosses with F1 crosses. You might get 2 to say 5 % that look about right. You'd keep like 3, 4, or 5 out of 100, but the chances that they'd be big breasted, big shouldered, blocky birds is pretty good. Should now be able to have three or four pairs of your own birds and step away from the original Creve cockerels. If not you have to go back again to them.
6. Third year, just pair 'em and cull 'em. At the incubator door inspect toes, crest, muff. As they grow out, watch the earlobes (!!).
7. Fourth year = same as third year, but things should be easier, and eventually you'll hit a new normal.

This is not an easy project. To be successful, in the first four years I wouldn't think anything less than hatching say 700-800 chicks, probably 1000-1200. You'd have to cull a lot at the incubator door: first year over 80%, second year 50-ish %, 3 year 25- 30%, fourth year and onwards under 20 % (all of this if you're lucky). This isn't easy to do. There are some breeds that have been given the "black dot" and Crevecoeurs are one of them. I doubt there are 20 good birds in the country, and I bet there are less than 5, if any at all, that could be called SQ. I don't write this for the sake of drama or intimidation; it's just the Crevecoeur reality. I'd love to see a line of Crevecoeurs in 10 years, but trying to do Creves is like trying to do Redcaps. They actually have to be rebuilt.

This is why Bob points to thinking twice before taking on the very rare. It's like your poultry project for a decade.

Plan B might be to get as many from DU as possible, and just go from there, but this might take a long, long time to select up, if at all, and even then you'd need partners so that when your blood runs dry you don't slip and slide backwards.

 

[Robert Blosl]

http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/crevecoeur.htm


Well, Even on BYC, the Creve owners come and go. There is no money to be made with them, as nobody buys eggs or birds. People try them out, then give up on them, even people who raise lots of birds. I'm really hoping Heritage Hens comes back, but she had a setback with her birds, and I'm afraid she became too frustrated. Another person had to give up her roosters as they were too loud, the loudest in her flock, so now she just has hens. I, myself, am a city girl in the 'burbs and I try to accommodate the birds, keeping them in the house at night, in a blanket covered box,which will have to be updated as it will soon become too hot for the birds in such a box, so I'm designing a ventilated sound reducing box, but am having a bit of trouble making decisions ;P. If my neighbors should really hate my birds and want me to get rid of them, then there go my plans!

I know of only one person who has had these birds a while aside from Dwayne Urich, and she isn’t socializing much, too busy I suppose. She just doesn’t do much talking I presume. However, I plan on getting some of her eggs in April if they’re laying (seasonal layers) and really look forward to seeing what her birds are like. Unless we get to move to the countryside, I’ll just be doing very tight and limited breeding, not expecting to be able to sell or “dispose” of extra chicks. I’ll try hatching eggs only from my best birds, but only to keep myself provided with laying hens. I will be very happy if I can do that successfully.


Found this on the internet about this breed. I can not see any reason to cross any breed of chicken on to this breed.

I have a hunch this breed from Urch is the old gene pool of a fellow named Henry K Miller from Pennsulvan a famous old time sting man and to do this would bust every thing that is sitting in this germ plasma. Like the Mottle Javas I found in January from Dr. Mc Graw line Urch got some from him. Locked up in this gene pool is the real McCoys. You have go GENE HUNTING. You hatch a bunch and pick each year birds that represent the look you want. If they are a solid color like black then all you got to do is poor the pressure onto the type. It will come to the surface I promise you. I got the Mohawk Gene to come to the surface in my strain of Rhode Island Reds by putting pressure on feather quality and more egg production. The lost genes where there from 1929 I had to go hunt for them.

If you set mini goals every three years and come up with a good line breeding program you will correct this old line and in ten years you could have them on champion row some where. We have seen it with other old breeds good breeders can do it. Now how do you become a good breeder. Hang around those who have done this befor and pump their brains out. Nice comments. You don't have to show to be a successful H person. It does help to have a good standard and read it. Thanks for joining the APA they need the help and they will help you.

Was at Wall Mart in the Magazine section and reading a magazine called chickens. Published by Hobby Farmer Magazine company. Could not see one chicken that I could recognized and had breeds that I never heard of befor. The quality of the poor chickens looked like the dogs I see at Pet Smart for adoption and like my dog. Want a be chickens from the past. Good posts.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

In the end, it's probably easiest to go with Bob's idea. Certainly less of a whirlwind. Outcrossing is a major headache. Some of the best birds I know are the product of outcrossing, but it one heck of a major headache.


Edited to add: Hindsight being 20/20. I've thought about it lately, and I kind of feel like between White Dorkings and Rose comb Anconas, I've done my Good Samaritan chicken thing. I think if there's ever another breed to come onto this farm, it's going to be from relatively strong stock, from a good breeder, that breeds pure, that's just peaceful and easy.

 

[thedragonlady]

In the end, it's probably easiest to go with Bob's idea. Certainly less of a whirlwind. Outcrossing is a major headache. Some of the best birds I know are the product of outcrossing, but it one heck of a major headache.


Edited to add: Hindsight being 20/20. I've thought about it lately, and I kind of feel like between White Dorkings and Rose comb Anconas, I've done my Good Samaritan chicken thing. I think if there's ever another breed to come onto this farm, it's going to be from relatively strong stock, from a good breeder, that breeds pure, that's just peaceful and easy.

Out crossing is a two edged sword. When I decided to cross English type Orps on SOP bred Orps I had a clear picture in my mind of what I wanted to produce.The trick is to get all the good, with all the good, from 2 lines that have not been crossed in many years. You have to decide priorities at the get go.Then you have to stick to those priorities through the subsequent generations. This will not work unless that ideal picture is engraved on your brain. It takes quite a bit of experience to know if that picture is correct, or not. Frankly, I cannot see how a novice breeder can cope with this.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

This will not work unless that ideal picture is engraved on your brain.

It's so true. It's like needing to have tunnel vision, and firm resolve not to deviate otherwise it will all come loose like poorly spooled fishing line.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Even now, looking at what's coming up, I bet I'm going to go into my 5th breeding season post-outcross (WHT Dorking to SG Dorking cross) with 5% to 8% of the birds from among those I hatched this year. Outcrossing looses so much, and there such a variable level of whether or not a given pairing will nick or not.

 

[thedragonlady]

It's so true. It's like needing to have tunnel vision, and firm resolve not to deviate otherwise it will all come loose like poorly spooled fishing line.

The minute you keep a bird who is related, but does not fit your ideal to some extent, is the minute that your genotype and phenotype divide. I've seen it too many times in dogs, and horses. I'm going to breed to "so and so", because he is full brother to "Rich and Famous Dog ". Breed to the "Rich and Famous Dog", and get somewhere, if he is throwing what you want.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Ok, Bob, I gotta a question for you (and the others can feel free to offer their insights). You mentioned many times how you pressured and went fishing and caused the Mohawk gene(s) to surface. How did you know it was surfacing, what did it look like to you? I am assuming it was a black quill or similar? How did you know which bird it came through, the dam or the sire? Maybe you didn't know and it didn't matter or maybe it sure did. If it did matter, what were your next steps after it surfaced?

I ask because I've been working with this old line of shabby Reds and have pressured many nice features to surface, color, feathering, front chest for better type, etc. But there are still some glaring weaknesses that remain. These tid bits are invaluable to those of us still working on some birds.

 

[cluck-cluck]

You are all so truly wonderful! Such great comments. Your first review of what I am looking to do is exactly what I figured I'd have to do Yellow House Farm.. I had a slightly different breeding system in mind, but will have to study what you said and see if that won't fit better!

Bob, You might be right. I know there is no money to be made here, so that's not an issue, I'm totally hobby oriented and need a project I can do that requires a bit of a challenge.. However, if you are correct and if it is possible to pull those good qualities from Urch's lines, that makes it a viable option again. I've just given up on that idea..

It's actually easier for me to take care of culling chicks, but the older birds will have to be processed by a butcher even so it will cost more. I don't need to start a feud with my neighbors!. Well, I am definitely going to take more time planning. I need to build more infrastructure which will keep me busy. I'll decide in January if I'll buy some of Urch stock,and / or exop's stock which is from the same lines.

You've given me so much more to think about, I can't thank you all enough! I can completely understand the chances that I'll just be another who gives up, it may happen. I don't have much in financial resources and I've spent almost this whole week laid up in bed because of a bad tendonitis flair up in my arthritic knee. If my health falls apart, there goes everything because my husband and daughter are not happy about helping me with them. On the other hand, the birds are keeping me moving and my mind exercised as well.. My husband has commented, several times now how I've become a happier person. Forgive me for moving so fast, if I look back on my posts here on BYC, I laugh at myself, so sure I just wanted eggs....

 

[BGMatt]

Out crossing is a two edged sword. When I decided to cross English type Orps on SOP bred Orps I had a clear picture in my mind of what I wanted to produce.The trick is to get all the good, with all the good, from 2 lines that have not been crossed in many years. You have to decide priorities at the get go.Then you have to stick to those priorities through the subsequent generations. This will not work unless that ideal picture is engraved on your brain. It takes quite a bit of experience to know if that picture is correct, or not. Frankly, I cannot see how a novice breeder can cope with this.

Really like the wording, this is probably why so many new comers and less skilled/educated breeders are so stubborn against crossing even different strains of the same breed. If you know your standard, know what end result you want, and have either the natural eye or a really good trained one, its not some big scary thing to outcross a bit. I'll echo one of my poultry heroes, "we breed chickens, not people."

The other side is exactly what you said in other post but is so important I want to reword it and restate it, only keep and breed from birds that have the qualities you want. Not the relatives of that bird that don't have the qualities.