Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[OSUman]

I believe that the breed mentioned was White Leghorn Bantams, which are very common, and it isn't very hard to find a strain that is diverse, and has all of the proper traits to create show winners, again and again if you know what your breeding for and what your doing. There are other breeds that are hard to find, and that the good ones are even harder to find, so if you want good ones you might have to add a thing or two to the genetics of the bird to get them to the standard. If you breed a bird to a bird just because it is the same "breed" to a point that it has no resemblance to the standard, that, in my opinion, is worse then adding another breed for one generation, to add the desired traits you want in your breed. You can see this being done in other species too, Guernseys crossing to Red Holsteins to improve their production and size, and I know I've seen graded goats for sale before, I just don't know much about them.

Haven't the master breeders on here been saying all along that you don't even need to mix strains- within a breed?

But, it's ok to cross breed with a different breed altogether.

You are not going to convince me. If heritage livestock breeders can improve/preserve their breeds without cross breeding, then poultry preservationists should be able to do the same.

 

[Chris09]

.....anyway....

I have a legitimate question.

I am curious about how many have or would consider outcrossing to a different breed to improve the breed they're working on. I've had a few folks tell me that I ought to consider using a Dark Brahma to cross on my Silver Penciled Rocks to improve size. I get where they're coming from, as the pattern is the same, and I've seen some VERY good penciling on many of them. However, wouldn't it take me 8-10 generations to remove all that I DO NOT want from that cross? I'm not convinced that this is the way to go, but it does make me curious about other folks who have crossed to a different breed. Is this "common" practice?

You would be Back Crossing since Silver Penciled Rock already has Dark Brahma in them.

Out Crossing is when you are Line Breeding and intrudes a new bird of the same breed but of a different unrelated line.


Chris

 

[OSUman]

What would you be doing if you introduce an entirely new breed?

You would be Back Crossing since Silver Penciled Rock already has Dark Brahma in them.

Out Crossing is when you are Line Breeding and intrudes a new bird of the same breed but of a different unrelated line.


Chris

 

[Chris09]

What would you be doing if you introduce an entirely new breed?

Cross Breeding.
Cross Breeding is the crossing of two or more breeds.

Chris

 

[OSUman]

Oh ok, was just curious.

Cross Breeding.
Cross Breeding is the crossing of two or more breeds.

Chris

 

[galanie]

many of the heritage breeds of chicken are the result of crossbreeding that is why they are called composite breeds. if you cross a different breed in and then breed back to pure for 7 generations, they are pure again. as long as they look like the apa standard, they are just as pure as anything else and maybe more productive

 

I made the distinction in my initial post, that I was talking about foundation breeds.

I'm not going to argue about it. I've stated my opinion. Obviously I'm the only one that feels this way. Which means there are NO truly purebred or heritage chickens in existence. So why try to preserve them??? They are all mutts anyway.

In your line of reasoning, there are no "pure" lines of any creature at all that people have been keeping for the last few thousand years. Even you will never find a "pure" breed because they don't exist any longer. Unless maybe you can creep around in a jungle somewhere and get lucky.

edited by staff to remove flaming

 

[mschlumb]

We just had this discussion! Some people are not in favor of crossbreeding. That's fine, there is nothing wrong with that philosohphy and it has its merits.
Other People are not opposed to it, as it can have its benefits. And most of us that do not have a problem with crossbreeding would probably agree that crossbreeding should only be used as a last resort and/or used sparingly.
The only thing we can do is breed towards APA standards, and hope to get a bird that matches the description. There are several methods of doing this, and we can argue all day which method is best.

 

[Pozees]

In your line of reasoning, there are no "pure" lines of any creature at all that people have been keeping for the last few thousand years. Even you will never find a "pure" breed because they don't exist any longer. Unless maybe you can creep around in a jungle somewhere and get lucky.

Thanks for pointing this out, galanie. Pure is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. Everything we think of as a breed of anything, was developed from its original wild form by intentional breeding, until a type was established that bred true. Clydesdales and Arabians look little alike, yet they descended from the same original wild species.

All breeds are developed, and some were developed based on crossing multiple early breeds in the first place, so finding a need to cross back to one of those foundation breeds to recapture a lost trait, or reinforce a weak one, doesn't reclassify the breed as a mutt. If you want to say all breeds are mutts it is stretching the facts, but to say it in such a way as to cast aspersions on those working to perpetuate heritage breeds of any animal is to ignore decades of dedication on the part of those who have developed, improved, and protected those breeds to the best of their ability.

Many of the people who selflessly offer their advice and counsel here have spent untold amounts of time trying to understand the way traits will come through in certain combinations, doing test breedings, keeping the offspring until they mature to see what they may or may not have achieved, sometimes scrapping the whole lot and going back to the drawing board because they got something they hadn't anticipated or just saw they had gone backwards. Breeding with intent is not for the faint of heart, but the only way to assure perpetuation of a heritage breed is to keep those in your care as true to form as possible, even if that means crossing back in a foundation breed at some point.

Based on the recent discussion of cross breeding and outcrossing, I think it is fair to say cross breeding is a last resort for everyone here, but if it strengthens the breed you are working to protect, you hold your breath and hope for the best. Rare is the exception, not the rule, but it does exist, and sometimes there is no second line or strain to use within practical proximity. Do you throw in the towel and quit, or try?

 

[capayvalleychick]

In your line of reasoning, there are no "pure" lines of any creature at all that people have been keeping for the last few thousand years. Even you will never find a "pure" breed because they don't exist any longer. Unless maybe you can creep around in a jungle somewhere and get lucky.

On the contrary, I was trying to stress the importance of keeping the foundation breeds of Standard Poultry pure. By foundation breeds, I mean the Dorking and others like it, which are so old that their origin- how they were bred in the first place- is not known.

I was surprised and disappointed that other breeders feel that crossbreeding a foundation breed of Standard poultry is acceptable, for any reason. I'm struggling with my Dorkings to bring them back to standard, so it's not like I don't know what you all are saying. There are no good Dorkings out there. But, I won't crossbreed in another breed because I wouldn't consider the offspring purebred.

And if every breeder has been crossbreeding them all along, what's the point of breeding them at all? That's not preserving the original foundation breed. That's creating a composite breed.

 

[gjensen]

I get both sides, and I hear what CappaValley is saying. I really think it depends on what you are working with and what your goals are. I think both are important. It is important to preserve some of these old strains. It is important to improve some to. I think it depends on what you are doing.
One of the things that helps keep some of these rare breeds rare, is that there aren't any good examples. Some of them need to be improved. I will use the New Hampshire for example. I have been interested in the breed for a long time. I spent a half dozen years looking for something good. I kept admiring the photos of the New Hampshires in Europe. Then I stumbled across Kathy and her birds from Akers. I mentioned in that thread of the original auction that I always thought the breed would be more popular if there was more good examples. Now everyone and their brother has them, and for good reason. In two years, we went from can't find any to they are easy to find.
Now the other side is a lot of people have and are crossing these NHs with inferior NHs, trying to "improve" them. I imagine that someone will be successful doing it, but as it is the best I see are the "pure" strain from Germany. It is just an opinion of mine, and some will disagree. The point is the same. You can mess something up with all of that crossing. Some of the rarest of breeds need some help though. No-one wants junk.
The Dorkings? I don't think you can mess with them. What could you cross them with that wouldn't take away from what they are? I think the Dorking breeders would have to import birds before they crossed them with another breed. A lot of breeds need an import. I wish more would import breeds that we already have instead of importing all of the ones that we do not.