Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[rodriguezpoultry]

D

I don't mean to get this thread sidetracked, but are people seriously arguiung over whether or not that bird is a Wyandotte? Walt was actually there and saw it in person, why don't people believe him?

Or am I just overreacting to others' reactions???   

Not over reacting in the slightest.

I'm hoping people believed that he didn't know and was seriously asking. No idea beyond that.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I don't mean to get this thread sidetracked, but are people seriously arguiung over whether or not that bird is a Wyandotte? Walt was actually there and saw it in person, why don't people believe him?

Or am I just overreacting to others' reactions???

It was a test.

 

[Bentley]

THis is when I get frustrated that state univerisities seem to only spend research dollars on commerical poultry.  WOuldn't this be a very interesting study for an undergrad to test so all of us with back yard flocks could benefit.  ( sorry, one of my pet peeves.)

Actually, I don't think any university that studies poultry uses tax dollars for any research on poultry. From my understanding, virtually 100% of poultry research is funded from grants obtained from WHOMEVER wanted the research done and NOT from tax payers dollars. I am pretty certain though that if someone flashed dollar signs for this kind of research it would get done.

 

[NanaKat]

In the discussion for breeding strategies for Bob's Mottled Javas my suggestion for brother/sister breedings has raised diverse opinions.
I have a line of Columbian Wyandottes that comes from a long time Oklahoma breeder who bred and showed his birds. He shared his line with a friend. I purchased a trio of young birds from this friend to begin my flock. When my friend chose to focus on his Bantam lines, I purchased his CW breeding flock. My cockerel and one pullet were of better type so I kept them and at my friend's suggestion used my cockerel over all five hens. He has mentored me along my path. Breedings from this pen produced 25 chicks. One trio was shared with an OKIE BYC fundraiser/auction and another trio was sold. Unfortunately the two cockerels we selected to remain in my flock were killed. Three pullets were kept for this year's breeding pens.

So, I have one two year old rooster, 3 three year old hens, 2 one year old daughters and a nine minth old pullet. Creative, but proven breeding strategies will be utilized to increase the progeny for this flock. Knowing these pairings come from a line where SOP traits were the focus in culling and breeding makes using all options part of the breeding plan. Currently the rooster is covering three pens: one with the older hens and one with the CW daughters and one over a Black W hen and a Blue W hen. He spends several days in one pen and then goes into each of the other pens for several days. Saving the best cockerels to be bred to the best sisters is a way to maintain quality SOP traits when close monitoring is utilized. Breeding the best cockerels back to their mothers and the best pullets to their father provides more progeny. In addition, a 1/2 brother to half sisters is a pen to consider.

Good record keeping is a definite so chicks are toe punched and banded and my notebook is set to document the pairings and offspring. The first chicks hatch on the 20th. This new generation will become the basis for setting up two parallel lines. And I'm researching other breeders for Columbian Wyandottes for future breeding program plans.

 

[3riverschick]

The are the Dr. Albert McGraw Mottled Javas. ......One thing I think I learned last night talking to a new friend on the phone from this board is as they get older they will get more White in them. So the chicks this coming year might be on the money for overall black and white mixutre. I have no clue. I have never seen a Java in my life and I have to learn about this breed just like any beginner......bob
=====================================
Hi Bob,
Judge Card addresses the subject in bold above in his "Breeding Laws" book. The bold lettering in the quote is my doing. Quote from page :
" Page Twenty-one
In mottled breeds the law generally is for
a predominance of black over the white. In
some mottled breeds the man-made standard spe-
cifies one white feather to five black ones; but this
Page Twenty-two
is a specification written without consideration of
existing conditions. There are over 8,000 feathers
on a fowl. No poultry show requires that a
judge shall count the feathers to find out the pro-
portion of white feathers as per specifications, and
no judge would do it if told to do so; therefore be-
ing obsolete by reason of its absurdity it is not a
law.
An even distribution of the white, with black
greatly predominating, is the main requirement.
The similarity between barred and mottled breeds
is the tendency of the black to spread, run or
streak into white, which destroys harmony, and as
like begets like and imperfections come without
breeding for them, avoid using birds with such
defects. The black should be black and the white
white without any intermixing. In mottled breeds
a disposition for adult birds to moult out white is
simply nature's sign of the limit of value in
strength and stamina as breeders. And while it
means that vigor is on the out-tide, because of the
lack of ability to secrete the black pigment, it does
not mean that such a bird will produce young light-
er colored than standard requirements; although
again, as like begets like, such a bird will throw
young with like tendencies at same age. Instances
there are a plenty of individuals so vigorous among
mottled birds that they would retain standard
markings and color till five or six years of age.
Therefore surely these are the proper birds to
breed from to perpetuate this desirable quality."
end quote.

 

[3riverschick]

Ok. Promise no more husbantry questions. I am looking for a good light brahma rooster. The girls i have appear to be of good size and form, but their fluff is pure white (whitest I've ever seen). Should I be looking for a rooster with grayish fluff (supposing I can find one with good form and size), or does it matter in the standard? It seems that the winning light brahmas in the poultry press and what has been posted on here has that gray under fluff. Should I even try to worry with the hens at all if they have pure white underfluff or try to breed it into their offspring? Last time I read the standard, i was confused on gray Vs. White. Thanks for your help.
I will be joining a poyltry association this sunday, so *hopefully* I will find a good breeder or at least someone who knows a good breeder.

It matters a great deal. Undercolor is critical to top color in breeds where black and white are in segmented parts of the bird. I read Judge Card repeatedly on this subject for my Light Sussex, another black and white color-segmented breed. Breeding Laws " quote page Twenty-Two:"
Where white and black markings are segre-
Page Twenty-three
gated in certain sections as in Light Brahma
markings, nature's control of the pigment appears
to be under a different law wherein under-color
plays the most important part in the proper segrega-
tion of black according to sections. Standard reads,
"undercolor white, bluish white or dark slate;"
yet nature's laws show that a clear white under-
color means generally imperfect primaries and
hackle, either too light or too black. This last is
possible as Standard requires primaries with white
at edge, whereas many primaries can be found
entirely black. This while not a serious defect,
is a defect nevertheless and mostly found on in-
ferior birds. Another defect found in birds of
white under-color is a strong brassiness on male
and creaminess of under-color in female. On the
other hand, where the under-color is slate unre-
lieved by white, nature plainly voices its protest
against too much coloring matter in under color by
decidedly smutty hackles and, in males, intense
heavy striping in saddles and backs, a breaking
out of black surface pencilings on breast, body and
fluff, peppered wing bars, many times attended by
brassiness; in females black in backs, smutty,
stubby hackles and pencilings on body and fluff.
But almost invariably with the under-color bluish
white, or with fluff next to skin white and that
next to web blue or slate, the black points are
standard and the white points free from penciling
of black and brassiness or creaminess in under-
color. Brassiness or creaminess in fowls of above
markings appears to be created by unpropor-
Page Twenty-four
tionate distribution of the black pigment. In
white fowls the above trouble may, in most in-
stances, be traced to breeding stock of short
pedigree in which bloods evidently of color have
been introduced. It is also a well known fact that
some white breeds originated from sports of dark
blood. The action of this dark blood has the same
effect in white birds as the black pigment in black
and white birds as outlined above, and cannot be
eradicated until a sufficient number of years in
line-breeding have elapsed to accomplish the clean-
ing out of the dark blood." end quote

 

[3riverschick]

In the discussion for breeding strategies for Bob's Mottled Javas my suggestion for brother/sister breedings has raised diverse opinions.
I have a line of Columbian Wyandottes that comes from a long time Oklahoma breeder who bred and showed his birds. He shared his line with a friend. I purchased a trio of young birds from this friend to begin my flock. When my friend chose to focus on his Bantam lines, I purchased his CW breeding flock. My cockerel and one pullet were of better type so I kept them and at my friend's suggestion used my cockerel over all five hens. He has mentored me along my path. Breedings from this pen produced 25 chicks. One trio was shared with an OKIE BYC fundraiser/auction and another trio was sold. Unfortunately the two cockerels we selected to remain in my flock were killed. Three pullets were kept for this year's breeding pens.

So, I have one two year old rooster, 3 three year old hens, 2 one year old daughters and a nine minth old pullet. Creative, but proven breeding strategies will be utilized to increase the progeny for this flock. Knowing these pairings come from a line where SOP traits were the focus in culling and breeding makes using all options part of the breeding plan. Currently the rooster is covering three pens: one with the older hens and one with the CW daughters and one over a Black W hen and a Blue W hen. He spends several days in one pen and then goes into each of the other pens for several days. Saving the best cockerels to be bred to the best sisters is a way to maintain quality SOP traits when close monitoring is utilized. Breeding the best cockerels back to their mothers and the best pullets to their father provides more progeny. In addition, a 1/2 brother to half sisters is a pen to consider.

Good record keeping is a definite so chicks are toe punched and banded and my notebook is set to document the pairings and offspring. The first chicks hatch on the 20th. This new generation will become the basis for setting up two parallel lines. And I'm researching other breeders for Columbian Wyandottes for future breeding program plans.

==========================================
NanaKat,
This is very interesting and very close to my plan for my trio of pure English strain Light Sussex. I am starting out with 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis breedings. The girls are 1/2 siblings to my rooster thru their dam. I plan to follow Judge Cards' chart. However, when I get to the 4th generation, I will do 2 things. 1. keep following Judge Cards' chart and:
A. take the best 3rd generation male back to the best daughter of the original dam. B. Take the best 3rd generation female back to the best son of the original sire.
2. Planning on bringing another strain of top show quality pure English Light Sussex hens and breed them as Walt advises for genetic diversity.

 

[NanaKat]

Karen, you are a wealth of information and I appreciate all the references you offer for us to read. I will need to find a copy of Judge Card's chart and writings. Using the third generation back to the second generation's opposite sex progeny is noteworthy. Thank you for that.

 

[3riverschick]

==========================================
NanaKat,
This is very interesting and very close to my plan for my trio of pure English strain Light Sussex. I am starting out with 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis breedings. The girls are 1/2 siblings to my rooster thru their dam. I plan to follow Judge Cards' chart. However, when I get to the 4th generation, I will do 2 things. 1. keep following Judge Cards' chart and:
A. take the best 3rd generation male back to the best daughter of the original dam. B. Take the best 3rd generation female back to the best son of the original sire.
2. Planning on bringing another strain of top show quality pure English Light Sussex hens and breed them as Walt advises for genetic diversity.

Hi NanaKat,
Speaking of inbreeding 1/2 bro to 1/2 sis. In my trio I have one rooster Junior, who is by Senior ex Dam 1;
and his 1/2 sisters March and May, who are by Sire 1 ex Dam 1.
Three different parents behind my trio. If I take the best daughters back to Junior for 3 generations, my ending Percentage of Line Inheritance is still only:
50% Dam 1; 43.75% Senior; 6.25% Sire 1 . No great lopsided ratios here. Just a pretty even split between sire and dam ratios. Another thing it points out is that the parent in common better be a real quality bird. Even here, where I was inbreeding on the sire line, the dam line remains at 50% after 4 generations.
Best,
Karen

 

[fowlman01]

Thanks for throwing the Langshan cookie my way! She looks a bit tired. Hope she wasn't sick. The shavings look relatively fresh so wasn't time for the show at this point...

She was Res Asiatic.

w.