Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[cluck-cluck]

Even though I understood what was being said, that photograph is so graphic, it was great to see (and archive on my computer for future reference) Thanks so much Fred's Hens!

 

[appps]

I agree, reading the standard is a lot harder than seeing the standard in real life

So just to clarify this would apply to all breeds not just the one shown?

 

[Pathfinders]

Thanks for the photos.

Has the above hen been culled?  It would be very interesting to see the anatomical structure without feathers in the way.  I do understand what to look for, I just thought it would be interesting to see.  I would imagine that the pelvis is narrow and this would also interfere with egg production.

Also, if one has over 100 13 week old chicks to evaluate, is there an easy way to do this?  All my chicks are black which makes things difficult and whenever they see me, it's a stampede!  I'll spot culls and then they get lost in the crowd.  I pick them off 5 or so at a time - go out with a flashlight and identify them to pull for fattening etc.  But is there an easier way that I'm not thinking of?

Thanks

Legbands with numbers you can read. Then get a small plastic stool an go sit where they range. Take a pad and pen. Make notes. Write down the ones you see who need to be culled based on what you see as they move around.

Then evaluate the rest using the ALBC methods for evaluating birds for production.

Culling for type and then production should leave you with a much smaller group of good breeders.

 

[finnfur]

Legbands with numbers you can read. Then get a small plastic stool an go sit where they range. Take a pad and pen. Make notes. Write down the ones you see who need to be culled based on what you see as they move around.

Then evaluate the rest using the ALBC methods for evaluating birds for production.

Culling for type and then production should leave you with a much smaller group of good breeders.

Some one tell me legband they prefer that are readable from distance . Supplier and size for Heritage - Delaware
I was just having this conversation with someone else. All ours have wing tags but its not good for quick ID at a distance.
Great informative thread.

It seems the station on the Shilling SOP Cock drawing on Delaware are back further than we are discussing is correct.
Although it has each leg in different position so it may just be illusion.

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this

 

[Wisher1000]

Me, too, finnfur, me too..........

 

[NanaKat]

For sorting 8 - 12 week old birds, I use a catch pen....a small enclosure in front of the coop. I stand each bird on a table and check for type: head, leg, "station"/stance, body build and I use my hand width as a gauge for the spread. I color band the keepers with one color and the ones for fattening with another color. These can then be separated into two pens. This reduces the keeper pen to a more realistic number. I watch them for the next two weeks and see if any more need to go into the fattening pen. Once birds are bigger I sort again. I switch the bands on the keepers and any culls to a bigger size. My grown Wyandotte use a size 10 and 12. I have ordered bands from Stromberg's. For culling, I get the multi colored packs of 500/1000 and sort out the colors into baggies...saves a little money that way. For the Keepers, I use numbered bands when they reach full size. I toe punch all my chicks by breeding pen and sire so I have that record on each keeper.

As the discussion has been on protein feed, I have read and heard that some breeders use a cat food or dog food with animal protein as an addition to their feed mix. I ran across this dog food, new to our feed store and was interested in the ingredients...far different from the list in my regular dog food. Here is the label....this feed includes oil of rosemary and fermented good bacteria products (last items on the list). Click on the photo to enlarge it for easier reading. While I haven't added dog food to my chicken feed, I do sometimes offer a can of tuna to my flock.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

A bird's balance point will change as it grows. You may see cockerels particularly, go up in one end ,or another. Wait for those birds to mature, IF they are excellent in all other points.

Thak you, that is a helpful hint on what to watch.
Angela

 

[Robert Blosl]

This female has great station legs dead center good head good color just has no flat top line. Wonder what the point cut would be on something like this for back section. Then point cut for symmetry. Nice bird other words Thanks Laura for the line on the back. bob

Can you see the shortness in body, Plymouth rock lift in the back section? Should be a flat long oblong shape on a Rhode Island Red. Color is what got this bird on champion row years ago. Unknown owner. But a good example of my topic today. Can you see Yard Full of Rocks keeping Colombian Rocks that have flat top lines line a Red or Elevated le top lines like a Langshang? This is my point in this message.


Symmetry, balance, proportion, harmony are terms used, particularly in the arts, to denote qualities based upon a correspondence or agreement, usually pleasing, among the parts of a whole. Symmetry implies either a quantitative equality of parts ( the perfect symmetry of pairs of matched columns ) or a unified system of subordinate parts: the symmetry of a well-ordered musical composition. Balance implies equality of parts, often as a means of emphasis: Balance in sentences may emphasize the contrast in ideas. Proportion depends less upon equality of parts than upon that agreement among them that is determined by their relation to a whole: The dimensions of the room gave a feeling of right proportion. Harmony a technical term in music, may also suggest the pleasing quality that arises from a just ordering of parts in other forms of artistic composition: harmony of line, color, mass, phrase, ideas.

What a great dialog on Station made me think of something that might help you as you look at your young stock this year and help you make a decision on what to keep this year for future breeders and who not to keep.. Last year we had a lot of people who were looking to upgrade to a better level of fowl more forwards the original breed look and leave the normal most popular look of fowl the Feed Store breed chicken whch thousands are purchased each year. The not so common original breed fowl is very rare as you have found out that only a hand full are breed and raised in the country per year.
One of the areas I think of when looking at a future keeper to upgrade in my breeding pen for next year is based not on color but type and most of all Symmetry. Do they have that old fashion breed look I am trying to pull out of the germ plasma. Locked up in these old breeds are hidden genes of great old males and females from years ago. In my case of the Rhode Island Reds I had Mohawk V locked up in there. After I went hunting for him some of symmetrical traits started showing up on my males after five years of putting breeding pressure on type. In the case of the Mottled Java's I found I just learned that Dr. Albert McGraw started with these birds in 1959 and trap nested these Java's from a average of 20 eggs per year to 150 eggs per year over a thirty year period. They are still pure from his source that he got them from back then with no black Java influxe which most java's of this color have today. So if I look for birds with good station and then try to get that classic Java type to show up maybe in five years I can pull these old traits back to the surface.

I also look at birds in a different way than most people do. I score them in my minds eye. Kind of like the young boys in California who are on the beach and see a nice lookng girl. Shes a 8 or shes a 9 kind like that. In poultry I score them using the APA Stadard point cutting chart in the first pages of the book. Example half a point cut for one to many points. A seven point cockerel with good type station tail ect looses two points right off the bad. Blade kind of cock eyes maybe a nick or extra point in it one pint. Tail angle off say on a Rhode Island Red bantam female three points, short in back two points. Here is the kicker. How much would you take off for having a screwed up back for SYEMENTRY? one two three points? I still don't know but what kills me is to see a bird which is a Rhode Island Red that has a back section like a Partridge Plymouth rock. Example. I get my poultry press and I see a picture from XYZ +show and I say to myself what a pretty Partridge Plymouth Rock bantam. I am so happy she won and is in the Poultry Press. This does not happen very often for this color pattern. Then I read the caption under the picture and it says.

Champion SCCleged a Rhode Island Red Bantams Pullet by so and so. You can pretty much tell that makes my blood bowel and I got to look for my Valium Bottle to calm myself down. How can a cull like this win over other worthy bantam single combs ant this show. She could not score with the defect and lack of SYEMENTRY 92 points. Its almos as bad as seeing a RUNNER DUCK when champion of the show. Sorry Walt.

So think about Symmetry or the bird as a whole as you look at your young birds. Some of them if they grow at a good rate will fill out and look very nice. It takes time to get these young birds to show promise. However, I can tell you after a year or two of rasing them you will see one sometimes in the brooder box at ten days of age and as they grow they get out in front of the other birds in their style, looks and just end up being the best bird of the year. If you should every find such a bird these are your key breeders and will pass these great traits on to their off spring.
Thinking that a slow in the back of the crowd chick will catch up to these guys is not locgial long term thinking. If you see some of these guys cull them unless they have something like a perfect head on them and you can cross them onto a fast featheiring mature bird.
I had a friend who use to hatch 200 chicks a year keep them till they where about five to six weeks old. He would take the top one out of ten and keep for himself and sell the other nine to a future beginner customer. Nothing wrong with these chicks but he wanted to keep and raise the one who jumped out in the lead. His expericne over ten ears was these where the best breeders and he had a killer strain of fowl.
Glad to see so much discussion of your young birds. Thanks to all who shared their chicks and eggs with beginners. The breeder of the year for me is Tom Roebuck so happy to see those nice buff rocks. May more of them get out next year and years to come. bob

 

[Pathfinders]

Some one tell me legband they prefer that are readable from distance . Supplier and size for Heritage - Delaware
I was just having this conversation with someone else. All ours have wing tags but its not good for quick ID at a distance.
Great informative thread.

Plastic bandette legbands with numbers you can read from a distance can be ordered from any number of sites:

First State Vet Supply: http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/store2/equipment/leg-bands/numbered/

Twin City Poultry Supplies (I just got these and like them a lot): http://www.twincitypoultrysupplies...._page=product_info&cPath=8_24&products_id=881_

Poultryman Supplies: http://www.poultrymansupply.com/2007Legbands.htm (scroll down for the bandettes)

Cutlers: http://cutlersupply.com/zen_new51/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_89

National Band and Tag: http://www.nationalband.com/legbands.htm (scroll down to the plastic bandettes)

And as Nankat says, Strombergs: http://www.strombergschickens.com/prod_detail_list/numbered-plastic-bands

Bear in mind, the ABA has permanent plastic leg bands, but those numbers do not stand out enough to be read from a distance.

And for Delawares, I would imagine you'd need 11s for the females, and 12s or 14s for the males. Here's a chart showing some of the breeds:

http://www.poultrymansupply.com/bandchart.html

Hope that helps,

Laura

 

[Pozees]

For sorting 8 - 12 week old birds, I use a catch pen....a small enclosure in front of the coop. I stand each bird on a table and check for type: head, leg, "station"/stance, body build and I use my hand width as a gauge for the spread. I color band the keepers with one color and the ones for fattening with another color. These can then be separated into two pens. This reduces the keeper pen to a more realistic number. I watch them for the next two weeks and see if any more need to go into the fattening pen. Once birds are bigger I sort again. I switch the bands on the keepers and any culls to a bigger size. My grown Wyandotte use a size 10 and 12. I have ordered bands from Stromberg's. For culling, I get the multi colored packs of 500/1000 and sort out the colors into baggies...saves a little money that way. For the Keepers, I use numbered bands when they reach full size. I toe punch all my chicks by breeding pen and sire so I have that record on each keeper.

As the discussion has been on protein feed, I have read and heard that some breeders use a cat food or dog food with animal protein as an addition to their feed mix. I ran across this dog food, new to our feed store and was interested in the ingredients...far different from the list in my regular dog food. Here is the label....this feed includes oil of rosemary and fermented good bacteria products (last items on the list). Click on the photo to enlarge it for easier reading. While I haven't added dog food to my chicken feed, I do sometimes offer a can of tuna to my flock.

Nice find! Was it pretty pricey?