Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[thedragonlady]

Deep litter seems to mean different things to different people. In theory, it is the piling of new shavings on old shaving, creating a new layer of bedding. It's great for waterfowl that don't scratch; thus, the top, new layer remains the top, new layer. I wouldn't do it for chickens. If your birds aren't overcrowded, four or five inches of shavings should last for a season or so, then out with old and in with the new.

I love my covered sand runs. I top dress with new sand once a year.My husband made me a great scooper out of a Wal-Mart dustpan on a stick. He took out the bottom, and pop riveted 1/2 " hardware mesh in. I pick up runs once a day , and the sand runs through the mesh, but the poop stays in to be carted off.Combined with poop boards under the roosts, I can keep my coops pretty clean with no manure buildup, or flies.

I do use wheat straw in the sleeping coops so my chubby kids have somewhere soft to land coming off their low roosts. It stays nice and fresh for a long time due to the poop boards.

I think dry runs and roosts are key to keeping birds healthy. The other advantage to using sand for run bedding is that chicken manure does not seem to be to "hot" to use fresh on all my hydrangeas and other plants. I think it's the heat generated by decomposing shavings and manure that burns plants, not to mention that decomposing shavings actually deplete the nitrogen in the manure. Might as well get the benefits of the end product of all the feed the birds consume !

 

[gjensen]

I do not think it is bumble foot. Sounds like something else to me.

I use and prefer deep litter in my houses. For me it is like managing a compost pile. Keeping the carbon nitrogen level right, and moisture level correct. The right amount of birds has a lot to do with this. The weather and season determines how long I can go. Your nose and eyes tells you everything you need to know.

 

[armorfirelady]

I also use DL in my coop. No smell. I tend to pile it in front of my roosts because they are about 3 ft up. I use a old fashion 2x4 someone had out for trash with the wide flat side for them to roost on. They prefer it over the natural tree limbs I have in there.

I have one hen with bumble foot but I believe she got a scratch on chicken wore I have on ground to keep predators from digging. One piece was sticking up and I didn't realize it.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Thank you for the compliment. Knowledge and experience make the wisdom needed to write a book.
I only know how to find the knowledge. It will not be wisdom for years. Best I can do now is dig up
the info and try to use it to make up some for my lack of experience.
Regards,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Flying down from a roost and jumping down from a roost are two different things, I think. In the first, the bird has time to use its wings to make a comfortable landing on the spot of its choice. In the 2nd, the bird is just jumping down on whatever ground is available to it. That's why I think the sage advice for roosts no higher than 18 inches for large fowl is right. In a coop, the bird doesn't get to select its landing spot. It just has to jump down onto whatever surface is available and at whatever angle the space in the coop allows. If the coop doesn't allow distance/trajectory for any kind of planned landing, the bird is basically "hopping" down from whatever height the owner has provided. I think it is much easier for birds to go up than come down in restricted areas like a coop.
I once obtained a trio of Speckled Sussex from a lady who was downsizing her flock. 2 older birds, one younger bird. The 2 older hens were crippled with enlarged, twisted feet. I asked the lady how high her perches were. She had Ginny hens, so had her perches at 5 ft. Those poor Sussex had been "hopping" down off this high perch for several years, crippling their feet. It was very sad, they were pretty birds.
Best,
Karen
Pull the round dowels. They get a more comfortable perch on the 2x4's. Replace the weathered 2x4's with kiln dried ones from a lumber store. The grain will be tighter and less places for dirt/pathogens to hide. Round off the edges and place the 2x4's with the birds perching on the 4 inch side. Personally, I don't have perches for my Light Sussex in my coop/runs. The birds just nestle down in the hardwood shavings and sleep.
You said you were using pine shavings? Does the bag smell like turpentine when you open it? Or fresh sawdust? I know Tractor Supply carries both kinds. I was nauseated when I opened the yellow bale and it smelled like turpentine. Those are Canadian soft wood shavings, as I remember. The white bale is hardwood shavings and smells like fresh sawdust. I use the white bale. Since birds can inhale thru their feathers, it seems sensible to me to use shavings with a natural scent instead of a turpentine smell.

 

[Robert Blosl]

THIS IS WHAT I AM DOING this year. I have a few conditioning pens made with four by four partitions and I put lone by four boards up right and glued and nailed them like a sand box. then I put silicon on the bottom to keep the sand from sifting out. I will use a scope like dragon lady has o get the manure out. This should keep a white bird super clean. I have others with pine savings and clean it out when its fifty percent manure and shavings and off to the mulch pile.

In the big eight by eight old large fowl pens I have shavings roost about eighteen inches off the ground. I also have ten bales of wheat straw and put that in there then once every three weeks I rake it all to the corner and sweep out all the manure and put the old straw down and ad a little more.

Another thing I did and will do this year is go to a horse stable and get horse manure and put about four inches on the big floors. For some reason with the shaving and the horse turds they love this stuff and they do fantastic. Old cocker trick I learned from a friend. So if you got a staple near by its free and the fresher the better. Then it goes in the compost pile which I have six four by four pallet types and then to the garden when rotten.

I have only seen one bird with bubble foot and he was the best r I red I ever saw. He was six years old and the people who bought him from Mr. Reese had the roosts to high three feet off the ground. He died from this and never got a chick from him. He was the male I wrote about in the history of the Mahwah line I started 24 years ago. Its a shame but that seems to happen to the better birds. all the others of hundred I raised never seen this before.

 

[fowlman01]

Hi,
Flying down from a roost and jumping down from a roost are two different things, I think. In the first, the bird has time to use its wings to make a comfortable landing on the spot of its choice. In the 2nd, the bird is just jumping down on whatever ground is available to it. That's why I think the sage advice for roosts no higher than 18 inches for large fowl is right. In a coop, the bird doesn't get to select its landing spot. It just has to jump down onto whatever surface is available and at whatever angle the space in the coop allows. If the coop doesn't allow distance/trajectory for any kind of planned landing, the bird is basically "hopping" down from whatever height the owner has provided. I think it is much easier for birds to go up than come down in restricted areas like a coop.
I once obtained a trio of Speckled Sussex from a lady who was downsizing her flock. 2 older birds, one younger bird. The 2 older hens were crippled with enlarged, twisted feet. I asked the lady how high her perches were. She had Ginny hens, so had her perches at 5 ft. Those poor Sussex had been "hopping" down off this high perch for several years, crippling their feet. It was very sad, they were pretty birds.
Best,
Karen
Pull the round dowels. They get a more comfortable perch on the 2x4's. Replace the weathered 2x4's with kiln dried ones from a lumber store. The grain will be tighter and less places for dirt/pathogens to hide. Round off the edges and place the 2x4's with the birds perching on the 4 inch side. Personally, I don't have perches for my Light Sussex in my coop/runs. The birds just nestle down in the hardwood shavings and sleep.
You said you were using pine shavings? Does the bag smell like turpentine when you open it? Or fresh sawdust? I know Tractor Supply carries both kinds. I was nauseated when I opened the yellow bale and it smelled like turpentine. Those are Canadian soft wood shavings, as I remember. The white bale is hardwood shavings and smells like fresh sawdust. I use the white bale. Since birds can inhale thru their feathers, it seems sensible to me to use shavings with a natural scent instead of a turpentine smell.

How in the world did a Sussex ever get up to a 5ft perch?

w.

 

[MagicChicken]

Thanks everybody for your replies. Since this bumblefoot issue is so widespread in the flock I am also wondering about a possible nutritional issue. They've been getting mostly soy-free organic feed. Layer pellets for the pullets and finisher pellets for the cockerels, with occasional handsful of scratch and some stuff from what's left of my garden. And an occasional mixture of Calf Manna and soaked whole grains (wheat, oat, barley). The bulk of their feed is the organic pellets.

So the problem only shows up in the cockerel pen and not in the Pullet pen? What type of roost have you provided for the pullets that is different from the cockerel pen?
A roost at 18 inches still allows the birds to move beneath it and is less of a drop.
2x4 s with the flat side up gives a different surface for roosting that may help relieve some of the pressure points.
I have not used pine needle litter...but use pine shavings, leaves and chopped straw with no problems.
Will be interested in the comments by others.

It is worse in the cockerel pen but it is in both pens. Most of the cockerels have it at a stage that will require surgical removal of the bumble. The pullets are in the early stages. I am willing to do the surgery on a few select birds, but surgery on ten cockerels is more than I can handle. I will be culling cockerels. The pullet roosts are the same kind, same height. The pullet pen is newer and actually has less buildup of pine shavings. I'm using pine shavings, not pine needles.

MagicChicken, what is their age?

They all hatched in mid January. They are about 6 1/2 months old. Haven't weighed them recently. A couple of months ago the cockerels were 4.5 - 5.5 pounds and the pullets were 2.5 to 3.5 pounds. They have put on weight since then. Standard weights for the breed are 8 lb cockerels and 6.5 pound pullets. They aren't anywhere near that heavy yet.

Are you sure it's bumblefoot? Is only one cockerel showing irritation? Your roosts aren't very high. On that, though, it's not that their "heavy" per se rather that their Cochinized. Brown eggers can't fly because their wings are too short.

The deep litter question is tough one. In your current coop, what is the floor space, and how many birds are on that floor space? You could try lowering the roosts, but again, I don't hear counter height as being all that high. Coming down from the rafters, though, ....not too much.

It's classic bumblefoot and virtually all of the cockerels have it. Dark, black scab-like area in the center of the foot pad. Foot pad is swollen in the bumble area. It's obvious when you look at the bottom of the foot. Swelling is more subtle when viewed from above, but now I know what to look for I can see it.

Interesting you mention "cochinized." Virtually all of my pullets have developed cushions they are not supposed to have. It is supposed to be an old strain of Javas, but I do suspect some cochin genes - maybe from several decades ago. Figuring out how to get rid of the cochin genes is a whole 'nother topic. Some of these birds fly pretty darned well. One of the cockerels flew up from ground level and hit me in the back the other day. Once I figure out who it was he will be stew.

There are 10 cockerels in a 12' x 14' space, so they have at least 16 square feet per bird. I think it is a bit tight for them. There is no separate sleeping coop. The structure has walls on the back and on 2/3 of both sides, with windows in each wall. The remaining walls are hardware cloth. The roosts are in the protected part. I live in the desert. Need to keep them in shade and protected from strong winds and horizontal rain that can come from any direction. This design works pretty well for that. They have several locations in the structure where they can roost. It gives them options depending on the weather.

The pullets are in an 8' x 12' hoop coop. They have about 12 square feet per bird. Same roost design. Similar dirt floor with pine shavings, but they happen to have less pine shavings than the cockerels.

It is possible the cockerels have it worse than the pullets because the cockerels are more likely to roost high in the bushes when they are out. It is possible the bumblefoot is coming from jumping down from those high spots. Over which I have little control, unless I don't let the birds out at all. If I prune up the bushes I won't have any vegetation in the yard. Or shade.

Prevention
The best way to prevent Bumblefoot is to maintain clean pens for your flock. Do not keep them on hard-packed surfaces. Pens should be kept clean and their grounds should be soft with grass, hay or sand. Avoid constantly wet surfaces—they should have free access to dry areas.
Since the bacteria staphylococcus aureus tends to be prevalent among chickens, many vets will recommend that you house your chickens and ducks in separate pens to reduce the risk of infection.​

Yes, it would be nice to have soft and grassy ground. But I live in a desert and there is no grass. There are also no constantly wet surfaces. The birds free-range on alternate days, and they will have to deal with desert hard-packed clay and gravel when they are out. In the coop/run I have some control of the surface.

Quote:

When we built our first big coop, we used plans in one of Gail Damerow's books. I don't have a pic handy but this is similar to how we set it up:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/568931/how-much-roosting-space-per-chicken#post_7359517

I second the notion to put the 2 x 4s with the flat sides up, and if you can, route the edges off so they're rounded, not square. Giving birds a stair-stepping sort of way to go up and down can prevent bumblefoot somewhat, but if so many of them have it, it does sound like you may need to disinfect the area, as staph might be overly present.

Oddly, I only ever see it in my Leghorns, not the Buckeyes, which are much heavier (and who have no problem flying right off the roost past my head onto the grass!)

This is the pic from that thread, ours is similar, but the roosts go all the way across and are bolted to the walls:

I kept my roosts lower so I could reach the birds at night. Nighttime is when I do most of my bird inspections. How do you get to the birds roosting high up?

Interesting you mention the breed differences. I am wondering if this particular strain is more susceptible to bumblefoot in conditions like I have at my place, since my other birds didn't get it. Love these Javas, so I am willing to work on management techniques to keep them healthy.

I do not think it is bumble foot. Sounds like something else to me.

I use and prefer deep litter in my houses. For me it is like managing a compost pile. Keeping the carbon nitrogen level right, and moisture level correct. The right amount of birds has a lot to do with this. The weather and season determines how long I can go. Your nose and eyes tells you everything you need to know.

What else would it be? If you saw it I don't think you would doubt it, but I don't know what alternatives might look like that. Black hardened scab-like area on swollen foot pad, looks just like the bumblefoot photos in countless posts and websites on the topic. Unfortunately I have not been able to get a picture.

There is virtually no smell in the coop, but that may be because it is a largely open-air coop. I am in the desert and things dry out really fast. I have to water my compost pile to get it to compost. It is quite possible I have not added enough shavings with sufficient frequency. I actually backed off on the shavings because it was too dusty. May have gone too far in that direction.

Pull the round dowels. They get a more comfortable perch on the 2x4's. Replace the weathered 2x4's with kiln dried ones from a lumber store. The grain will be tighter and less places for dirt/pathogens to hide. Round off the edges and place the 2x4's with the birds perching on the 4 inch side. Personally, I don't have perches for my Light Sussex in my coop/runs. The birds just nestle down in the hardwood shavings and sleep.
You said you were using pine shavings? Does the bag smell like turpentine when you open it? Or fresh sawdust? I know Tractor Supply carries both kinds. I was nauseated when I opened the yellow bale and it smelled like turpentine. Those are Canadian soft wood shavings, as I remember. The white bale is hardwood shavings and smells like fresh sawdust. I use the white bale. Since birds can inhale thru their feathers, it seems sensible to me to use shavings with a natural scent instead of a turpentine smell.

The round dowels are actually integral to the roost structure. I built several roosts from old wooden ladders with dowel rungs. The ladders are mounted horizontally and are free-standing so I can move them around while cleaning. The birds have the option of roosting on the round "rung" part or the 2x4 on edge "rail" part. They use both, but most prefer the 2x4 rails.

The shavings do not have a turpentine smell. They smell like fresh sawdust. I am confused about your "inhale through their feathers" comment. Their respiratory system makes them especially susceptible to airborne pollutants, but they are not inhaling through their feathers.

 

[MagicChicken]

THIS IS WHAT I AM DOING this year. I have a few conditioning pens made with four by four partitions and I put lone by four boards up right and glued and nailed them like a sand box. then I put silicon on the bottom to keep the sand from sifting out. I will use a scope like dragon lady has o get the manure out. This should keep a white bird super clean. I have others with pine savings and clean it out when its fifty percent manure and shavings and off to the mulch pile.

In the big eight by eight old large fowl pens I have shavings roost about eighteen inches off the ground. I also have ten bales of wheat straw and put that in there then once every three weeks I rake it all to the corner and sweep out all the manure and put the old straw down and ad a little more.

Another thing I did and will do this year is go to a horse stable and get horse manure and put about four inches on the big floors. For some reason with the shaving and the horse turds they love this stuff and they do fantastic. Old cocker trick I learned from a friend. So if you got a staple near by its free and the fresher the better. Then it goes in the compost pile which I have six four by four pallet types and then to the garden when rotten.

I have only seen one bird with bubble foot and he was the best r I red I ever saw. He was six years old and the people who bought him from Mr. Reese had the roosts to high three feet off the ground. He died from this and never got a chick from him. He was the male I wrote about in the history of the Mahwah line I started 24 years ago. Its a shame but that seems to happen to the better birds. all the others of hundred I raised never seen this before.

Does it make a difference what they feed the horses you get the manure from?

 

[Pozees]

MagicChicken, until you have time to do all you want, for the moment if you have some Oxine I would spray everything with it (1/8 tsp per quart in a spray bottle is what I use), turn the ladders sideways so they can perch on the wide side of the 2x4s if at all possible, add fresh shavings, or sand if you have access to some (maybe they won't kick it all to the sides) or find some straw, and actually, if you can find bales of straw, you could even leave them in bale form and place them where the birds would be jumping off their roosts so they have an interim landing pad. I'm in the desert too, it is rare for anything to stay wet longer than a few hours even after a good rain. For the bumbles, you might try what someone on another thread did, mix sugar and ... oh rats, I'll have to go look and come back, think it was iodine? Anyway, she mixed into a paste, put on the bumble, and wrapped with vetwrap or duct tape, and never had to do surgery. WAY simpler. I'll look it up and post later. Just my random thoughts on how you might deal with this.