Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Lacy Blues]

This is totally off topic (well, almost totally), but I wanted to share a new 3rd generation rodenticide I found recently that is specifically created to reduce the risk of secondary poisoning, which can be a huge problem with dogs, cats, and various predator birds. I know not everyone is fond of hawks and owls, but I am a birder as well as a breeder of poultry, and I wrote an article a while back for Backyard Poultry Mag about the nastiness of the second generation rodenticides, after one of our dogs got into a bait and almost died.

So when i found this, I was pretty excited to read about it, and I ordered a pail which came yesterday. Set it up in the main layer coop and a couple of other spots, we'll see how it works. It's called Terad 3, and it also poses a low toxicity to birds, so in theory it won't be an issue for chickens either. Here's the website I got it from:

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/terad3-blox-p-1283.html

I'll check back in in about a month and let you know how it's working. (Note, I have no connection to the company that makes it or the website that sells it, I'm just looking forward to using something that will kill mice but not my barn cats.)

It's totally your decision to use this stuff but I've read about something that involves no poisons at all. A 5 gal bucket with something to climb on the outside. Across the top, attach a piece of wood and from that suspend a popsicle on a piece of thin wire and put some very yummy smelling stuff on the popsicle stick. When they smell it and climb up the bucket and jump down to get the goodies, they miss or even if they get it, they can't climb that thin wire and they fall to the bottom of the bucket. At the bottom, there are 3-4 inches of water and they swim around for a while til they can't swim anymore. In the morning, you have lots of animal protein for your birds to chase around with.

 

[Pathfinders]

I'm really excited to see where Lakenvelders end up in a few years. If Laura can do as much work with Lakenvelders as she did with Buckeyes, they will definitely fair far better than they do currently.

That's very flattering, but I am hardly the one who carried the largest amount of water on the Buckeye project. Full credit for preserving the breed must go to Duane Urch, who kept them going when they fell out of favor with everyone else. And Don Schrider and Jeannette Berlanger, with their ALBC project (and all the farms that participated), need a huge amount of credit for the current resurgence. And it was Matt John who turned me on to Buckeyes (via birds he had from John Brown), without Matt who knows when I would have heard of them? And all those who have helped with the ABPC since its formation: Chris McCary, Bob Gilbert, Melody Hobbs, Marci Kerley, Trisha Dusil, Jason Page (laboring away back east all on his own for years!), and many more (I can't possibly name them all.) I'm just one of many, and I will say I'm pleased you and your father have joined us Daniel.

 

[Pathfinders]

It's totally your decision to use this stuff but I've read about something that involves no poisons at all. A 5 gal bucket with something to climb on the outside. Across the top, attach a piece of wood and from that suspend a popsicle on a piece of thin wire and put some very yummy smelling stuff on the popsicle stick. When they smell it and climb up the bucket and jump down to get the goodies, they miss or even if they get it, they can't climb that thin wire and they fall to the bottom of the bucket. At the bottom, there are 3-4 inches of water and they swim around for a while til they can't swim anymore. In the morning, you have lots of animal protein for your birds to chase around with.

Oh yes, in the article I wrote for BYP Mag, I included a sidebar with a pic of one of those and a link on instructions on how to build them. The one I linked to used a dowel and a pop can with PB on it, but same principle. They work great, as long as you have the space for them, and as long as you can place them where other critters can't get at them (they are useless in my barn because it's not tight enough to keep a raccoon out that smelled peanut butter!)

But for small areas, using one of the smaller bait stations with some of this bait, this is a very excellent alternative to the terrible second generation rodenticides.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: I agree. In and out breeding is very effective. Yes, certain rules do apply across species. When we were breeding collies I ran trial pedigrees thru all kinds of systems for collecting virtue in pedigrees to see what would theoretically fall out of the tree. We used percentage of line inheritance, female family inbreeding, inbreeding, out-breeding, line breeding, rotational strain-crossing. , etc. with different combinations of sire/dam to see which would theoretically produce the best outcome. Just to see how excellence stacked up in the abstract. And the results proved out the projected excellence in the abstract.
Yes, poultry are different. They have a wider genetic base than dog breeds and many more sex-linked genes. Plus the color patterns, unlike most dogs, are required percentages which are stated in the Standard.
Certain rules still cross barriers. In racehorses and dogs there is female family inbreeding. In poultry we know to bring new blood in thru the hen. In dogs and poultry we know the value of the old rule , breed three generations in and then cross out. In dogs people will cross family strains during the "out". In poultry, Wid Card defines this suggestion as : breed three generation in and breed "out" by crossing to an ancestor of the same strain about 2-3 generations back in the pedigree. In poultry, we cross "out" within the family strains because we want to keep the sex-linked genes and plumage patterns stable.
There are a bunch of classic poultry breeding pedigree systems out there. Part of the problem is the inventors presumed the breeders would be hatching 100-500 chicks a year. Frankly, that is beyond my means as a hobby breeder. Too many pens, birds and expense. I find Fleche's pedigree breeding chart very confusing. Then there was the BYC newbie who posted for help with his bantam Dark Leghorn breeding program 6 days ago. He inquired whether his diagram of criss-cross breeding would work and never got a response. He was seeking a program which would work with a small number of birds.
So what do we do? Those of us with a trio, a quad, a small flock who want to preserve a Heritage fowl? How do we breed the very small flock? Part of the answer is in quality of the foundation flock. It must be of the highest quality because you will be inbreeding part of the time. Superior birds from a proven show strain which has been line-bred for many years. If one is working with a breed which doesn't have this available, then the rest of this post is not for you, because you will have to practice complementary mating until your birds reach a point in perfection where this method will work for you.
Have a very clear idea of what you want to accomplish in the breed. This does not include changing the breed in general because your genetic input is too small for that big pond. Decide what is most important for you to improve in your breed. Pick one or 2 things at most. 3 is too many, the genetic variables are exponential at that point. Health, breed silhouette, plumage color, production values. Or? These will be the "hallmarks" of your future strain. Tho we all breed for overall excellence, these one or 2 things will be what your future strain is known for. They will be what other breeders come to you to get for their flocks. Egg color does not count. It is a minor variable like eye color. In breeds where it is not crucial, it is unimportant. In breeds where it is, it is maintained by everyone, like eye and shank color.
Now, choose your strain in line with your ideas for the breed. Choose a strain which is strong in those areas, but not weak in other areas.
Make the plan first, then choose the strain. It is a "must have" to understand the genetic history of the strain. How it throws strengths and weaknesses. Which male and females "nick". What breeding schemes the creator has used in the past to concentrate virtue in the birds. Which schemes haven't worked. How feeding and management affect the bird's quality. If you can get the breeder to share his feeding regimen, treasure that secret and don't share. It is money in the bank. Consult the breeder heavily for breeding advice for at least the 1st 3 generations until you get to know the strain.
However, you say, the breeder of my chosen strain hatches 100-500 chick a year. I can't do that. By the 3rd generation, you will understand which types of breeding programs to use with your birds within the number of birds you own. The best breeders use most all of them depending on the needs of the flock. Presuming you have superior birds from a veteran line-bred , proven show strain, and are in need of a starting place, this method by Judge Wid Card is a proven one for concentrating virtue and producing "cookie-cutter" birds within a definite number of generations. It uses both in and out breeding and can be used with a starting flock as small as a trio. It can expand to a larger flock if wanted, but it's results lay in the power of the scheme itself, not the number of birds involved. http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312
Best,
Karen

 

[Chickens Naturally]

Breeding out to a totally unrelated male...heck, it wouldn't even have to be a Barred Rock, and then waiting 2 weeks to breed to the good BR males would be worth a try.If anyone tries this, please let me know the results !

This is interesting stuff, thanks. The only thing I would caution against is that hens may not ‘clean out’ in two weeks. I know this goes against a common practice of split breeding, but I have read a story about a hen that was separated into a breeding pen with supposedly no chance of a ‘creeping Rooster’ hatching out a cockerel that was obviously sired by a rooster of an unrelated breed that she had not been in contact with for more than three months. Unfortunately I can’t remember the breed of the hen, but I think the Rooster in question was a Brahma. I’m pretty sure I read this somewhere on feathersite dot com. and they have the pictures of the cross cockerel and the parent stock

 

[Robert Blosl]

Got a phone call from one of my fellows who I am helping with my old white rock large fowl line. He explained what he wanted to do this coming spring after he locates the chosen ckl or two and two good pullets from about 40 chick's he hatched. Now these males when they grow up are going to be as good as their sire or maybe a half a point better. His sire is a great one and is true to breed and to my old strain. So he said I planed to mate one or two of his daughters to him and then hatch them and raise them up just like this year and pick the super top pullets the cream of the cream in type ect back to their sire again the next season. This chart kind of shows how you just drop down each year and mate the best say daughters back to the sire each year for thee or four years. You are fixing the traits from this great male and hopefully when you get to the third year or fourth his sons are better than his.

Now he says he is going to have over in another chicken house a hen that he loves and mate her to the best ckl and then raise the best males up and pick the male that is really super nice maybe better than the sire that I just talked about in the above paragraph and do this again for three years. Again we are going to be getting also super females from this mating and males.

Got a phone call from one of my fellows who I am helping with my old white rock large fowl line. He explained what he wanted to do this coming spring after he locates the chosen ckl or two and two good pullets from about 40 chick's he hatched. Now these males when they grow up are going to be as good as their sire or maybe a half a point better. His sire is a great one and is true to breed and to my old strain. So he said I planned to mate one or two of his daughters to him and then hatch them and raise them up just like this year and pick the super top pullets the cream of the cream in type ect back to their sire again the next season. This chart kind of shows how you just drop down each year and mate the best say daughters back to the sire each year for three or four years. You are fixing the traits from this great male and hopefully when you get to the third year or fourth his sons are better than his.

Now he says he is going to have over in another chicken house a hen that he loves and mate her to the best ckl and then raise the best males up and pick the male that is really super nice maybe better than the sire that I just talked about in the above paragraph and do this again for three years. Again we are going to be getting also super females from this mating and males to.

Now after three or four years of breeding the best off spring back to these original pair we need to find something else to breed. We can take the best pullet from the male line and the best cockerel from the hen line and cross the two together and start all over again. That’s kind of what that completed Fletch chart is telling you to do and I agree its complicate to follow but this is what I am going to do.

Next you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. How about having a male and female line going somewhere else on your property You can go over an get a good male from them and cross them over onto a pen two female line male or female whatever you want to do. Then pound away again for the years like that.
​

I hope that clears up a simple system for two or four good birds. Keep it simple and it will work. What are the traits you are looking for Vigor, type then color? That is what my friend is going to do with his White Plymouth Rocks.
He does however have spare birds at his brothers yard five miles away that he can go back and get if he has a loss or finds a great bird that molts back say at two years and wants to breed from them. This way he can focus on a hand full of birds four or six and then raise the chicks which are about 40 per year. The goal is to only breed from the very very best and try to keep chicks that might be a little better a point or so better each year than what he started with. That’s what I call breeding upwards. Go slow go slow and go down the middle of the road approach. Hope this clears this up. Please try to make it simple if you are a beginner. Don’t get caught up with a lot of stuff. Get you some good chicken feed, give them fresh water and take good care of them. It’s not all that hard.

Had to edit this I lost my battery power and had to go back in and log in and forgot my pass word. bob

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

Got a phone call from one of my fellows who I am helping with my old white rock large fowl line. He explained what he wanted to do this coming spring after he locates the chosen ckl or two and two good pullets from about 40 chick's he hatched. Now these males when they grow up are going to be as good as their sire or maybe a half a point better. His sire is a great one and is true to breed and to my old strain. So he said I planed to mate one or two of his daughters to him and then hatch them and raise them up just like this year and pick the super top pullets the cream of the cream in type ect back to their sire again the next season. This chart kind of shows how you just drop down each year and mate the best say daughters back to the sire each year for thee or four years. You are fixing the traits from this great male and hopefully when you get to the third year or fourth his sons are better than his.

Now he says he is going to have over in another chicken house a hen that he loves and mate her to the best ckl and then raise the best males up and pick the male that is really super nice maybe better than the sire that I just talked about in the above paragraph and do this again for three years. Again we are going to be getting also super females from this mating and males.

Lets say you only want to do this for three years. You go over and get a real nice

Bob

I am planning to use this same set up to work on GETTING a good male.

I have 1 really nice hen (the one in the picture by the gate door) that I am going to mate back to her son (a best K from this yr), then to a grandson, then to a great grandson. Hoping to maintain what I have in my females, but HOPEFULLY produce a stellar male somewhere along the way

 

[Zanna]

Got a phone call from one of my fellows who I am helping with my old white rock large fowl line. He explained what he wanted to do this coming spring after he locates the chosen ckl or two and two good pullets from about 40 chick's he hatched. Now these males when they grow up are going to be as good as their sire or maybe a half a point better. His sire is a great one and is true to breed and to my old strain. So he said I planed to mate one or two of his daughters to him and then hatch them and raise them up just like this year and pick the super top pullets the cream of the cream in type ect back to their sire again the next season. This chart kind of shows how you just drop down each year and mate the best say daughters back to the sire each year for thee or four years. You are fixing the traits from this great male and hopefully when you get to the third year or fourth his sons are better than his.

Now he says he is going to have over in another chicken house a hen that he loves and mate her to the best ckl and then raise the best males up and pick the male that is really super nice maybe better than the sire that I just talked about in the above paragraph and do this again for three years. Again we are going to be getting also super females from this mating and males.

Lets say you only want to do this for three years. You go over and get a real nice

I have a question about this plan............ By the time you get to D3, your sire would have to be around 5 years old if you are breeding him to the best of last years daughters and if you started using him when he was about a year old. The daughters at this point would be about a year old or a little less. What is the consensus on breeding younger pullets, say after they have been laying for about 3 months (so maybe 8 - 11 mos. old)? I can breed year round so barring molting and broodies, I might be able to speed up this process a little and potentially have a more fertile male by the time I get to the D3 point. Thoughts?

 

[Pathfinders]

By the 3rd generation, you will understand which types of breeding programs to use with your birds within the number of birds you own. The best breeders use most all of them depending on the needs of the flock. Presuming you have superior birds from a veteran line-bred , proven show strain, and are in need of a starting place, this method by Judge Wid Card is a proven one for concentrating virtue and producing "cookie-cutter" birds within a definite number of generations. It uses both in and out breeding and can be used with a starting flock as small as a trio. It can expand to a larger flock if wanted, but it's results lay in the power of the scheme itself, not the number of birds involved. http://archive.org/details/cu31924003158312
Best,
Karen

Thanks to Karen for providing us with that link! I have pulled the chart out and enlarged and cleaned it up a bit for you all. PM me if you want the file so you can print it out for yourself:

 

[catdaddyfro]

This is interesting stuff, thanks. The only thing I would caution against is that hens may not ‘clean out’ in two weeks. I know this goes against a common practice of split breeding, but I have read a story about a hen that was separated into a breeding pen with supposedly no chance of a ‘creeping Rooster’ hatching out a cockerel that was obviously sired by a rooster of an unrelated breed that she had not been in contact with for more than three months. Unfortunately I can’t remember the breed of the hen, but I think the Rooster in question was a Brahma. I’m pretty sure I read this somewhere on feathersite dot com. and they have the pictures of the cross cockerel and the parent stock

Yeah don't post that one up on here or you'll not hear the end of it believe me I took it off quickly. I opened up a wasps nest and can of worms all in one whack on that move. LOL

Jeff