Bob Blosl's Heritage Large Fowl Thread

[Robert Blosl]

Thanks Kathy wish I could figure out how to post pictures. I think we have described this secret method maybe there is no term for this. bob

 

[AllenWMiller]

Robert you post an interesting question and if I correctly understand you are raising this question:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"What is the term if there is one for crossing back such a line every five to say eight years.????? Its a type of OUT CROSSING but it is the same gene pool that both breeders started 50 years earlier." I think to what you referred is "sustained in and in inbreeding".[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Interspersed with the above question, you discuss improving a strain of White Plymouth Rocks (WPR) using line breeding (modified inbreeding) and liberal inbreeding and things you touch upon in your message seem to indicate this method.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I bring up two old timers from the past to answer this complex question - Harry Graves and Maurcie Delanao (arguably two of the greatest fathers of the breed). They employed similar methods to develop and maintain their strains of White Plymouth Rocks.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Your "1000 mile distance" isn't what's important; rather isolating two distinct but genetically identical strains of WPR's is what you seek. Likewise, obtaining a 3rd strain completely unrelated is necessary as well.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As I was starting a beginner's discussion under the SOP string regarding "inbreeding"; this form of inbreeding you are raising would be considered even beyond the scope advanced breeding. I know of only a handful of poultry-men who have ever pursued this method of two and three line inbreeding programs; as it requires extreme patience, diligence and fortitude to accomplish. I am also not sure you could find 3 genetically pure lines of White Plymouth Rocks today.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I will clumsily attempt to explain this method as explained to me by Harry Graves over half a century ago, below as simply and briefly as I can:[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Grading-up (selective breeding) and in and in inbreeding takes a period of 5 to 15 years. Grading-back (out breeding) through in and inbreeding takes another 5 to 9 years.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The first planned mating of the first cross of WPR hens with WPR cockerels, referred to is F1, inter se mating. Accordingly, suitable first generation cocks are mated to selected hens; as always based on SOP. These progenitors are grouped to avoid inbreeding and kept distinct in two groups. The offspring of the F1, inter se matings, the F2 generation, are the "double cross" in the line. The objective in the F2 or double cross, generation is to obtain cockerels, which will be purest in color, and superior to both progenitors of both first crosses.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It takes several years for the best individual first-cross cockerels to be singled out. The best cockerel of the first F2 “double cross” of the progenitors becomes the Alpha Cock (AC). Without question he must be superior in all aspects of body, size and color.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From this AC, planned mating continues using the AC crossing back to the original progenitor hens creating an Alpha one first generation F1A. From this generation are selected the two best of AC sons which are place back with the progenitor hens of both groups producing AC FA1 “double cross” generation. Now taking hens from the first generation AC FA1 double cross back to AC to produce second generation AC FA2 double cross. The hens from this cross are then taken and separated and culled into two classes and crossed with AC's first generation sons. (Note here it would take too long to explain the re crossing of AC's grandsons back to the grandmother's but the math is the same as explained above.) The results after usually 10 or more generations is the creation of two stable, separate but genetically identical lines.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]These lines tend to weaken and so Grading-back is necessary by drawing stock from the Graded-up stock and this is where it gets a bit shaded. You have to either have a separate line of WPR completely unrelated to the two strains created or you had better know the Grading-up line of stock you will chose your new cock to Grade-out your strains.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Grading-up is the system of breeding, whereby, generation after generation of standard bred cocks are used on the similar standard bred hens of the same flock but where the cocks are unrelated to the females major improvement, through heterosis, results in the F* generation. Performance and type approaches that of the purebred in the succeeding generations. After the sixth generation, the graded flock will be genetically similar to the in an in bred generations. Important consideration in a grading-up program is that the cocks used should be performance tested and the production level must be high.[/FONT]

 

[cherylcohen]

Great information - I've got 3 different lines of silver pencils now that I'm working with and trying to decide how to combine them.

Can you explain why distance would make a difference?

 

[TomNY]

It sounds like you are describing Lateral Breeding when you mate distant cousins each close to the same number of generations removed from an individual or pair in the pedigree. I'm not sure I can find the source again to get a more detailed decription of this method. Tom

 

[Robert Blosl]

I did some looking on the Internet last night befor going to bed and could not find anything to help me. Environment has a effect on animals or chickens. You can have a strain of Rhode Island Reds raised by me down here for say ten years and send them to a good breeder like Dennis Meyers like I did once and he send me a video of them at about five months old and they looks nothing like the brothers and sisters I had down here. He sent me 25 chicks and by September half of them died from the heat and humidity of my tropical climate. Only five females survived and looked worth a hoot. I got rid of them all and did not want to take a chance on it. He got his from Mr. Reese about ten years befor I did so they where the same strain and he won big with his birds in the Ohio area. Another story was about 30 years ago a fellow in Mobile Alabama got 25 Golden Sebright bantams from John Wonderlich of St Louis Mo. He raised them up got rid of about five chicks and one day John called and said I am driving through from Florida to Texas and want to stop buy and look at your Sebrights. The owner said sure come on buy but you wont see much they look like the devil they are junk. So when John got to his house and looked at them he said boy they sure dont look very good the fellow said it was a waist of money to get these scrubs. John said would you take $100. for all twenty of them. Yes you have a deal. So John took the twenty young bantams to Texas then back to St Louis and put them on the yard with thier brothers and sisters. He put a pink leg band on the left foot of each bird. In the fall when there was a big show in his area he took three of the females that were sent down here to this man and showed them. One of the females was Champion of her class and I think Reserve Champion Bantam of the show. Once she got back home and and drank the water and feed there and the climate they turned right around and looked like a million dollars. Now what Genetic res pose did these birds have on living in this environment rather than St Louis. Many think getting chickens from the south and raising them in the North or the the way around is no big deal. I do. I have seen the results. It takes about three generations for birds to adjust to their new climate. I had a cattle man tell me about 20 years ago they will not buy any registered cattle unless its below the mason Dixon line. He says they just will not make it in this climate.

Is it mutations on the birds caused by climate?

What we are doing is making a out cross from the same original strain. So would you call it self strain out cross? Original strain Out cross?

When you go to a fellow breeder in say Illinois who has a good strain of White Rocks that is not related to yours you have a pure outright Out Cross.

Let me tell you one story that happen this past year. I sent ten chicks to a master breeder in Minnesota four years ago. He raised the birds up and he breed my birds in small numbers for three years then decided to get out of chickens one day. He sold a trio to a fellow in North Dakota and the male died for some unknown reason. He then went to a major breeder and winner with White rock large fowl and got a nice male. He contacted me and told me all the chicks lost the extended keels that I had on my strain. Can you send me a male? It was a out cross and it was a white bird so what could go wrong? Why did the keels shrink on his chicks when mine down here have keels like a Rhode Island Red?

These are just questions I have not even been able to get answered in my time raising chickens. There has to be a scientific reason for it.

Thanks for your help I will find the answer some day. I will let you know but I know one thing you are better off crossing birds of the same strain to your birds than getting birds from a differ net strain it will save you lots of time and money. That is if you are a breeder to improve Heritage Large Fowl. bob

 

[Minniechickmama]

I have nowhere near the experience as some of you folks here, but I do believe back in my days in AG classes that there is a term for what Bob is asking, but it is lost on me too. However, I think Toms thought about lateral breeding is close.

Bob does raise a good thought though in regards to weather hardiness. I would think after 10 years that your Souther strain has made adaptions to the hot weather, especially when you hatch an early batch of chicks in the year, say February or March and those particular chicks are able to slowly acclimate to the weather you have. Then you take some chicks that were from the north and bring them down when they have felt the effects of the north climate from hatch, and when I say climate, it entails heat, humidity, barometric pressure and the whole nine yards. I wonder if it was more a shock to their systems or if it was something to do with their breeding and genetics. That same could apply to the reason that the flocks, though genetically should he somewhat homogenous, would appear different by comparison after a few months. There are many factors in raising them that makes a huge difference too, and you can see that in many species that are raised on different feed, different housing types, different water - which could have a more far-reaching effect on livestock and humans that many of us would believe. Water in my pond is not identical to water in yours, is sort of the philosophy I am getting at.

That is a curious thing though.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Thanks Kathy wish I could figure out how to post pictures. I think we have described this secret method maybe there is no term for this. bob

Bob, posting pictures now is easier than before.
If you look in the Reply box, at the top you have several icons. In the 7th block there are two arrows that point opposite to each other. The first icon in the 8th box is a little colored block. Click on that icon and it will take you to a small window where you can "browse". If the photo you want to post is on your computer, you find it through the option for browsing and then click it, and click "Submit". It then goes directly to the reply or post you are composing.
Easy Peasy.
Theri

 

[AllenWMiller]

Ah, now I better understand the terminology you were looking for Robert, but it isn't a specific type of breeding you are looking for; rather you are looking for a term used in genetics generally.

The term you are looking for to explain the differences in your flock and the same genetically identical flock raised in a different environment say 1,000 miles to the south is called "genetic divergence"; whereby environment, climate, food differences and other natural elements impact non-coded DNA. This is why the flocks may physically "appear" different but are still genetically identical. The coded DNA is not affected by genetic divergence just the non coded DNA. So "red" feathers may be say deep mahogany colored in the south and more red chestnut colored in the north but the feather structure and quality itself is identical.

I haven't delved into genetics this deeply in 30 years. Very exciting stuff for an old man to discuss

But I should have saved myself a lot of typing and folks a lot of reading had I a better understanding of you initial question or my brain was quicker to realize what the real question was in the first place!

JA

 

[AllenWMiller]

And yes Robert, the in and in inbreeding methods are used in a variety of animal breeding projects and cattle and swine heavily rely on this method. But as I said it has been used on a variety of Aves as well. The difficulty with chickens and in and in breeding is controlling the breeding process generally. With bovine and swine we use artificial insemination almost exclusively with in and in breeding and grading generally. Likewise, with various endangered Aves, including the original Bald Eagle Program of the 60's and 70's artificial insemination was also used. This insures successful and standardized breeding, a term we are all becoming more familiar with. I now of only a few breeders who have used artificial insemination with chickens; though the process once learned is relatively easy to adapt to poultry.

JA

 

[catdaddyfro]

Ah, now I better understand the terminology you were looking for Robert, but it isn't a specific type of breeding you are looking for; rather you are looking for a term used in genetics generally.

The term you are looking for to explain the differences in your flock and the same genetically identical flock raised in a different environment say 1,000 miles to the south is called "genetic divergence"; whereby environment, climate, food differences and other natural elements impact non-coded DNA. This is why the flocks may physically "appear" different but are still genetically identical. The coded DNA is not affected by genetic divergence just the non coded DNA. So "red" feathers may be say deep mahogany colored in the south and more red chestnut colored in the north but the feather structure and quality itself is identical.

I haven't delved into genetics this deeply in 30 years. Very exciting stuff for an old man to discuss

But I should have saved myself a lot of typing and folks a lot of reading had I a better understanding of you initial question or my brain was quicker to realize what the real question was in the first place!

JA

Ah yes genetic divergence that's the ticket. Well I would not have thought of that in eons but thanks for sharing and reminding us ones that need constant reminding(namely me). I laughed at your phrase in the end there Mr. Miller. That's something I'm constantly having to remind myself to do 'cept for one thing I don't have the age(elderly) excuse as you (not that I'm calling you old or anything) I just hope I have half of what I know now still stored up-stairs in retrievable condition when/if I reach your prime, mature age. LOL

Jeff