Bonding with my horse AND getting her to focus???

[welsummerchicks]

I have one comment alone - you are a saint dealing with a near impossible situation.

The only thing more bull headed than a woman is a man.

Oh let's face it. They are pretty much neck and neck in that race.

 

[Redcatcher]

Quote:
Rereading this thread since it goes all over the place and lots of assumptions. I have nothing further to say about that but will comment on how complex horses CAN be. Training is and should be simple but not because of the horse being so simple minded but he actually thinks more like we do than we realize. I worked with one stallion who did not like the process of being haltered. He had some other minor issues as well so I worked with him daily in his stall. One time he got a drink from his bucket so I backed off for a moment. He quickly associated drinking as a comfort zone. Well the next time the heat was on, into his water bucket his head went. What was amusing was that he was not drinking at all but pretending to. His lips were in the water alright. but there was no swallowing. Conditioned response? I do not think so. He wanted me to BELIEVE he was drinking and therefore would leave him alone. Another horse I worked with learned that he could pick up spooky objects and chase other horses with them. He learned it worked just as well at feeding time. I saw him continually pick up a paper bag and wave it in their faces. The horses would scatter and he would drop the bag to eat. Another horse in a video I saw on TV learned to use a stick to scratch the itchy spots that he could not reach. Not by rubbing against it but picking it up in his teeth and using the end of it like a human would use a backscratcher! That is a very complex, thinking brain that can reason, deceive AND plot.

 

[welsummerchicks]

As much as I would love to agree and bolster my social currency (lol), I can't.

It would be plotting and deceiving if they had any sense of wrong and right, which they absolutely do not have and cannot have, never did, never will, not one of them, not ever. If I haven't learned anything else in this life, I do know that. It is simply something he learned to do, after getting rewarded for doing so again and again. Horses learn, and not so eventually, as most of the mistakes we make, we manage to create a behavior we don't want much quicker than eventually - usually it only takes once. It is our doing, that we perhaps inadvertently, but nevertheless, teach them to do something and decide then we don't like it.

And yes, I have a horse that does the same. And he is the most honest soul that ever stood up on legs since time began, and I would take a bullet or a beating for that animal any day I had to. That is how much of a gentleman he is, and how generous and forgiving he was in work, and will be to the day he dies, and the world will be a hollow, colorless, empty place the day that old gentleman passes on. He is a king and always will be, so would any horse that is treated right and trained well.

You are talking about MY horse plotting and being deceiving, and you are wrong about that, as well as about yours and any other horse. They are not like that, and I am sorry you think that way. But I am not interested in changing your mind - I am just happy to have had the privilege of working with such wonderful animals.

 

[Sumatra503]

Question the Idea, Not the Person!

When you are posting it is important to consider this, because that's how arguments get started. It is not her that you dissagreeing with here, it's the idea of having your horse loose in the arena with you sitting in a chair. I have seen this done many times and have been told many times that it is an okay or harmless thing to do. Not just by this one person.

When someone goes off subject and completely bashes the original poster, don't tell them, "Well Said!" or "Couldn't have said it better!" tell them, "Boy, you should go back and edit that." or "Man, that was really uncalled for.", or perhaps "Is it really that person you disagree with?" Yes, you guys, what you have been saying is a little uncalled for in most civilized conversations.

When someone asks for your help give them your help, don't give them your rude and blunt opinion of them. Question their Idea and gently correct them if they were wrong or said the wrong thing.

If they try to argue just let it drop and go on with your day instead of going on for an entire 8 pages. If you go back and read most of the posts are saying the same thing with different wording anyway.

If you have something different to say, about the idea and not about the original poster, then maybe the discussion could calmly continue without it being an argument anymore. If you are seconding or whatever, then maybe everything's been said already.

I have no authority to tell you to stop arguing I'm just suggesting a solution that I feel will be better.

This is just my Idea and it's something we used to do in Class Discussions during Middle School and it seemed to work well. Whenever it stopped being a discussion and turned into an argument the teacher would end the discussion and eventually we all learned how to have a nice calm discussion about a topic.

Since we're adults I think we can have a nice and civilized discussion about an Idea that was presented without it turning into a full blown argument.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I am NOT arguing!

Arguments are down the hall, you're in the wrong room.

 

[Sumatra503]

So you agree then?

 

[welsummerchicks]

Noooooooooo. I think you're putting a creative spin on what happened, though, and I do admire that.

I think when someone's doing something dangerous with a horse, they need to get told clearly, even if they don't like to hear it.

I like the person, and always have. Otherwise I would not go to the effort to try and tell her. I would just sit here and chortle with delight when she gets her head bashed in.

( the last sentence, not really....of course....).

 

[Redcatcher]

Right or wrong is subjective and not a qualification in plotting and deceit. A human child does not grow up knowing right from wrong. He must be taught. Does a child need to be taught how to lie? No. Lying comes rather naturally to them and it is up to an adult to teach them that it is wrong. Usually the lie is to deceive when there is something to be gained, other times it is through an overactive imagination (Many people believe the later applies to horses, I do not). The stallion that stuck his nose in the bucket pretending to drink was attempting to deceive me. I did not teach him to do this. He figured this out the first time on his own when he drank. The second time he was not thirsty and pretended to drink. Like an innocent human child, he had no idea that he was doing anything "wrong". And how could you say a horse does not and cannot plot when trying to cut a really crafty cow? He has to be one step ahead of and be outthinking the cow with little or no help from his rider.

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

The stallion that stuck his nose in the bucket pretending to drink was attempting to deceive me.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree. All in the world the stallion did was discover how to get his own way to end an unpleasantness that you were making him endure. It was about HIM. He didn't care about you or your feelings, only about ending something HE did not like. Deceit is a HUMAN characteristic and horses do not possess it. They are not involved in what you think or feel. They aren't even aware that you DO think and feel. They are self-aware only. When they like us it is not because of us but because of how we relate to THEM. They are not like human children. They cannot reason their way through life. Cutting horses cut because they like the game much the way dogs chase a rabbit--it's instinct and it's FUN. If they don't enjoy it, it quickly shows in lost cows and we soon find another horse to cut with or another job for that horse that he is more adept at.

There are a lot of truly fine and noble horses out there but I do not believe they are that way because of us or to please us. They are not dogs that way. They are noble and fine for themselves because of a need inside them. It is their own personal need to be fine and noble and NOT because we in any way made them that way.

JMO, of course!

Rusty​

 

[michickenwrangler]

Quote:
I'm sorry but I cannot agree. All in the world the stallion did was discover how to get his own way to end an unpleasantness that you were making him endure. It was about HIM. He didn't care about you or your feelings, only about ending something HE did not like. Deceit is a HUMAN characteristic and horses do not possess it. They are not involved in what you think or feel. They aren't even aware that you DO think and feel. They are self-aware only. When they like us it is not because of us but because of how we relate to THEM. They are not like human children. They cannot reason their way through life. Cutting horses cut because they like the game much the way dogs chase a rabbit--it's instinct and it's FUN. If they don't enjoy it, it quickly shows in lost cows and we soon find another horse to cut with or another job for that horse that he is more adept at.

There are a lot of truly fine and noble horses out there but I do not believe they are that way because of us or to please us. They are not dogs that way. They are noble and fine for themselves because of a need inside them. It is their own personal need to be fine and noble and NOT because we in any way made them that way.

JMO, of course!

Rusty

I agree with this. Studies with chimps and gorillas show that even THEY are not as deceitful as humans!

You mentioned comfort zone, Red Catcher. The stallion associated not being haltered with the water bucket. A friend of mine had a TWH that had been taught to reach around to touch the rider's boot as a stretching exercise. For whatever reason, she somehow associated this with comfort (possibly treats, I don't know if her original trainer used treats as enticement or not). The mare would do this at the oddest moments, whenever she was a little afraid of something. I've seen her do it before crossing water, getting in a horse trailer or confronting something scary like a tarp. My friend just treated it as a little quirk as it never became an issue. A few people thought it was "cute".

"Aww, she's hugging you," they would say.

No, she just for some reason continued to do it.

Actually, memory jogged, there was a time she got tangled up in her reins in a freak accident and after she tripped and fell, she just lay upright with her neck craned around and her nose where the stirrup was. Probably saved her life or at least from injury that she didn't freak out further. We managed to get the bridle off her and she got up and wasn't hurt.

Although I do think some horses have a desire to please.