Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[capayvalleychick]

2 of them were just one year old hens, the other was an Orloff, 2 years old, and all had a very large amount of abdominal fat. Am I feeding my birds too much or is this normal? How does one slim down their layers, especially if they are in a big flock?

Years ago, I had a hen die of fatty liver. Since then, I don't feed scratch or grain. That seemed to be what was causing the excess fat in the hens. I just feed a pelleted ration with no extras. Are you giving them grain?

Now, I am seeing a lack of fleshing. Much of that is due to genetics (except for Kathy's Dels). I did research and consulted with a pro breeder who seems to know a bit about feed. It turns out that fat is lacking in poultry rations. It can't be added at needed levels at the mill, because fat goes rancid quickly. Fat with linoleic acid is what poultry need. So, I just started adding a bit of sunflower oil to the ration. That's what he recommended. I'm also giving some HULLED sunflower seeds. Both my research and the breeder confirmed that sunflower seeds in the shell have too much fiber and that negates the benefits of the fat. He also recommended whole oats if you are feeding a ration above 16% CP.

 

[desertmarcy]

Years ago, I had a hen die of fatty liver. Since then, I don't feed scratch or grain. That seemed to be what was causing the excess fat in the hens. I just feed a pelleted ration with no extras. Are you giving them grain?

Now, I am seeing a lack of fleshing. Much of that is due to genetics (except for Kathy's Dels). I did research and consulted with a pro breeder who seems to know a bit about feed. It turns out that fat is lacking in poultry rations. It can't be added at needed levels at the mill, because fat goes rancid quickly. Fat with linoleic acid is what poultry need. So, I just started adding a bit of sunflower oil to the ration. That's what he recommended. I'm also giving some HULLED sunflower seeds. Both my research and the breeder confirmed that sunflower seeds in the shell have too much fiber and that negates the benefits of the fat. He also recommended whole oats if you are feeding a ration above 16% CP.

They get a 19.5% protein diet. 17% layer pellet mixed 50/50 with 22% chick starter crumble. I had to boost the protein level up due to too much feather picking. That is all they get, other than greens when we have them. I never feed scratch. Our climate is too hot for that. I tried giving them whole oats once but they wouldn't eat them. I didn't realize whole oats are sharp and pointy at the ends? Maybe that's why they didn't like them?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Years ago, I had a hen die of fatty liver. Since then, I don't feed scratch or grain. That seemed to be what was causing the excess fat in the hens. I just feed a pelleted ration with no extras. Are you giving them grain?

Now, I am seeing a lack of fleshing. Much of that is due to genetics (except for Kathy's Dels). I did research and consulted with a pro breeder who seems to know a bit about feed. It turns out that fat is lacking in poultry rations. It can't be added at needed levels at the mill, because fat goes rancid quickly. Fat with linoleic acid is what poultry need. So, I just started adding a bit of sunflower oil to the ration. That's what he recommended. I'm also giving some HULLED sunflower seeds. Both my research and the breeder confirmed that sunflower seeds in the shell have too much fiber and that negates the benefits of the fat. He also recommended whole oats if you are feeding a ration above 16% CP.

This is interesting info! But a little confusing to me (confusing me is easy).

I can understand limiting the carbohydrate portion of the diet ... the treats like scratch ... but then there is the recommendation to feed the whole oats & hulled sunflower seeds. So ... I'd logic that to mean the normal recommendation of no more than 10% "scratch" isn't necessarily bad, but it shouldn't be too carbohydrate/corn-based or have too much fiber (hulls, bran, etc.)? As I understand it, a lot of the big-brand commercial rations have a lot of this stuff in the feed as filler ...

How much fiber do whole oats have? I've read that feeding oats does help egg production, etc. I've been wondering why. Perhaps the fat in the oats? I found this quote at a horse nutrition site ...

"Whole oats, also called hulled or covered, have about 11-13% protein and 5% fat. If you have a growing horse, breeding horse, or horse doing moderate to heavy work, you will probably want higher protein. Hulless oats are available and contain about 27% more protein and 49% more fat than whole oats. They contain about 5% fiber as compared to about 10.5-12% fiber for whole oats, but a Cornell study showed that 40% of the fiber was digestible compared to 30% of the whole oats. (Your main source of fiber should be forage, though.) Hulless oats offer more than hulled oats when it comes to amino acids - 50% more methionine and 60% more lysine. Because hulless oats contain more digestible energy than whole oats, you will feed 1/4 less. Hulless oats are a natural horse grain since the oat itself grows with an envelope but not a hull - it is only to protect from temperature change. When it is ready to be harvested, the envelope falls down." http://www.pet-health-advisor.com/naturalhorsegrain.html

We should be getting our first order of custom milled, locally sourced, all-purpose poultry pellet soon. When planning this ration, I did a lot of reading about protein levels -- how much is too much vs. how much is optimal vs. how little is "limiting." It is interesting research because most info about feeding poultry is designed for maximum efficiency instead of maximum health. They don't really study past a certain threshold of "diminishing returns" unless they're trying to induce gout.

One resource suggested that heritage breeds need to be fed like poults ... 28% protein to start.

(http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/heritage-chicken-faq)

I wrote to them to ask about the science of that, and got a nice e-mail explaining that there is a farm having a lot of success with that kind of diet compared to farms using "cheaper" feeds, but the specific info about the high-protein ration is proprietary, and they couldn't really tell me more. So ... it's not "scientific" exactly ...

I think the best we can do with this big question is to share experiences.

The feed expert at the mill I've been working with says she really likes camelina oil (from a local source, where the camelian is locally grown, the oil & protein meal are separated using pressure, not chemicals, and are the final products ... this isn't a by-product of the jet fuel industry where lots of fancy chemicals are used). The Camelina oil is a stable Omega 3 oil, and has a really "fresh" green flavor ... I don't know if this type of oil has the specific type of fatty acids lacking in prepared poultry rations ... I'll have to try to find out. I know that too much camelina protein can give poultry products an "off" flavor, but I don't know about how much camelina oil is okay ... I'm guessing it needs to be used sparingly or you run into the normal problem of the stuff that gives good Omega 3s also produces a "fishy" flavor.

Back to the question of fatty livers ... When processing turkeys (Broad Breasted Bronze), I noticed the males and females store their fat completely differently. The females have more fat in the body cavity and the liver is a lot more fatty (more orange compared to the males'), the males have fat in the skin instead of inside the body cavity. The turkeys all get the same feed, and the hens are a LOT more active than the males & do more foraging rather than just wolfing down the feed (we let the turkeys free range and they are excellent at finding a wide variety of foods, and hiding spots for their eggs), so I'd expect the hens to be "healthier" looking inside. Funny what hormones can do.

The feed we've settled on is about 19% protein with fish meal, local grains & legumes, is corn-free (and soy-free so it can easily be GMO free). We'll feed extra fish meal to poults if we get those again, and I'm debating if I should also supplement the Delaware chicks/breeders with more of the fish meal, too. The scratch I've been considering pairing it with (to encourage the birds to "make their beds," so it is fed very conservatively) will also be corn-free ... it has a higher protein level than most scratches, and a wider variety of ingredients (it seems to be the widest variety of local grains/seeds/legumes passing through the mill at any given time, minus GMO crops). I know it has sunflower seeds, but I don't know if they are hulled or de-hulled. I still have some questions about the scratch I need to work through with the mill ... I need to have the proper scratch to cut the duck's rations down to the 16% protein level, and I have questions about "seeds" and ducks (lots of resources vaguely state that ducks & seeds don't mix).

Wow ... that got long.

 

[gjensen]

Kim, it is good to hear you say that. I have been trying to convince some for a time. Our rations are short on fat. Breeder rations have a bit more. I do feed my birds de hulled sunflower seeds. The hulls do not hurt them in moderation, but they cannot utilize them. Chickens are not high fiber animals.

Desertmacy, birds that are confined and are free fed can get too fat. Some are more prone to this than others. Most people do not notice. A solution is limiting the ration, or giving them an alternative. Hanging some greens for them to pick at can help.

Leslie, some of that stuff is in in the feed, but it is processed. A bird can utilize something processed that it could not if it was not.

Oats are great, if not for the hulls. My birds will not eat them either. They would if they had nothing else to eat. The hulls are the hang up with oats. Too much fiber. Otherwise they are more balanced than our other common grains. A solution is soaking them, which makes them more palatable to the birds and separates the hulls. Then they are an excellent supplement, and the birds enjoy them.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Leslie, some of that stuff is in in the feed, but it is processed. A bird can utilize something processed that it could not if it was not.

This is one reason why my feed mill suggests not using a ration that is whole grains ... not only does presenting the bird with a mixture of whole grains and free-floating supplements mean the birds can pick out the bits they like and ignore the rest, and it is harder to keep it well mixed and balanced, but also "processing" the grains makes the nutrition more available to the bird. My mill recommends pellets.

I find that pellets also result in a lot less waste when fed dry.

 

[gjensen]

This is one reason why my feed mill suggests not using a ration that is whole grains ... not only does presenting the bird with a mixture of whole grains and free-floating supplements mean the birds can pick out the bits they like and ignore the rest, and it is harder to keep it well mixed and balanced, but also "processing" the grains makes the nutrition more available to the bird. My mill recommends pellets.

I find that pellets also result in a lot less waste when fed dry.

That is how I understand it myself.

I do throw my birds some whole corn or wheat. It is more of a behavior management tool than anything. I also feel like they are putting their gizzards to work. Then without it being processed, it has a higher oil content. They do not get much, and it is half de hulled sunflower seeds.

Otherwise they are fed a balanced pre mixed ration. I have never come up with a better way to feed the birds than what comes in a bag. Not that it is all equal.

 

[finnfur]

They get a 19.5% protein diet. 17% layer pellet mixed 50/50 with 22% chick starter crumble. I had to boost the protein level up due to too much feather picking. That is all they get, other than greens when we have them. I never feed scratch. Our climate is too hot for that. I tried giving them whole oats once but they wouldn't eat them. I didn't realize whole oats are sharp and pointy at the ends? Maybe that's why they didn't like them?

We soak the 1 oats / 4 wheat / 1/2 corn mix for 48 hours in 1/tablespoon vinegar hot water - they eat the oats quick with the rest- Each bird gets 1 heaping table serving spoon. I think the soak makes the difference. In addition they get fat from Calfmana pro [ about 3oz mixed in soaked feed for 9>12 birds just before serving ] They also have 24 hour available Southern states "Rock n Rooster" pellets - it is 18%- The Rock n rooster has very little calcium so they get oyster shell on the side.
Cockerels ready to process get triple dose of the CalfMana starting 3 weeks before kill.
Scraps as available.

 

[LindaB220]

This is interesting info! But a little confusing to me (confusing me is easy).

I can understand limiting the carbohydrate portion of the diet ... the treats like scratch ... but then there is the recommendation to feed the whole oats & hulled sunflower seeds. So ... I'd logic that to mean the normal recommendation of no more than 10% "scratch" isn't necessarily bad, but it shouldn't be too carbohydrate/corn-based or have too much fiber (hulls, bran, etc.)? As I understand it, a lot of the big-brand commercial rations have a lot of this stuff in the feed as filler ...

How much fiber do whole oats have? I've read that feeding oats does help egg production, etc. I've been wondering why. Perhaps the fat in the oats? I found this quote at a horse nutrition site ...

"Whole oats, also called hulled or covered, have about 11-13% protein and 5% fat. If you have a growing horse, breeding horse, or horse doing moderate to heavy work, you will probably want higher protein. Hulless oats are available and contain about 27% more protein and 49% more fat than whole oats. They contain about 5% fiber as compared to about 10.5-12% fiber for whole oats, but a Cornell study showed that 40% of the fiber was digestible compared to 30% of the whole oats. (Your main source of fiber should be forage, though.) Hulless oats offer more than hulled oats when it comes to amino acids - 50% more methionine and 60% more lysine. Because hulless oats contain more digestible energy than whole oats, you will feed 1/4 less. Hulless oats are a natural horse grain since the oat itself grows with an envelope but not a hull - it is only to protect from temperature change. When it is ready to be harvested, the envelope falls down." http://www.pet-health-advisor.com/naturalhorsegrain.html

We should be getting our first order of custom milled, locally sourced, all-purpose poultry pellet soon. When planning this ration, I did a lot of reading about protein levels -- how much is too much vs. how much is optimal vs. how little is "limiting." It is interesting research because most info about feeding poultry is designed for maximum efficiency instead of maximum health. They don't really study past a certain threshold of "diminishing returns" unless they're trying to induce gout.

One resource suggested that heritage breeds need to be fed like poults ... 28% protein to start.

(http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/heritage-chicken-faq)

I wrote to them to ask about the science of that, and got a nice e-mail explaining that there is a farm having a lot of success with that kind of diet compared to farms using "cheaper" feeds, but the specific info about the high-protein ration is proprietary, and they couldn't really tell me more. So ... it's not "scientific" exactly ...

I think the best we can do with this big question is to share experiences.

The feed expert at the mill I've been working with says she really likes camelina oil (from a local source, where the camelian is locally grown, the oil & protein meal are separated using pressure, not chemicals, and are the final products ... this isn't a by-product of the jet fuel industry where lots of fancy chemicals are used). The Camelina oil is a stable Omega 3 oil, and has a really "fresh" green flavor ... I don't know if this type of oil has the specific type of fatty acids lacking in prepared poultry rations ... I'll have to try to find out. I know that too much camelina protein can give poultry products an "off" flavor, but I don't know about how much camelina oil is okay ... I'm guessing it needs to be used sparingly or you run into the normal problem of the stuff that gives good Omega 3s also produces a "fishy" flavor.

Back to the question of fatty livers ... When processing turkeys (Broad Breasted Bronze), I noticed the males and females store their fat completely differently. The females have more fat in the body cavity and the liver is a lot more fatty (more orange compared to the males'), the males have fat in the skin instead of inside the body cavity. The turkeys all get the same feed, and the hens are a LOT more active than the males & do more foraging rather than just wolfing down the feed (we let the turkeys free range and they are excellent at finding a wide variety of foods, and hiding spots for their eggs), so I'd expect the hens to be "healthier" looking inside. Funny what hormones can do.

The feed we've settled on is about 19% protein with fish meal, local grains & legumes, is corn-free (and soy-free so it can easily be GMO free). We'll feed extra fish meal to poults if we get those again, and I'm debating if I should also supplement the Delaware chicks/breeders with more of the fish meal, too. The scratch I've been considering pairing it with (to encourage the birds to "make their beds," so it is fed very conservatively) will also be corn-free ... it has a higher protein level than most scratches, and a wider variety of ingredients (it seems to be the widest variety of local grains/seeds/legumes passing through the mill at any given time, minus GMO crops). I know it has sunflower seeds, but I don't know if they are hulled or de-hulled. I still have some questions about the scratch I need to work through with the mill ... I need to have the proper scratch to cut the duck's rations down to the 16% protein level, and I have questions about "seeds" and ducks (lots of resources vaguely state that ducks & seeds don't mix).

Wow ... that got long.

Yes, Leslie, I found out about hull less oats TODAY. I've been trying to feed my chickens with the whole oats. Nada. They don't like it fermented or sprouted. It's a wretched attempt on my part. I thought about grinding the oats up and seeing if I can get rid of some of the hulls. Pondering.

 

[capayvalleychick]

This is interesting info! But a little confusing to me (confusing me is easy).

I can understand limiting the carbohydrate portion of the diet ... the treats like scratch ... but then there is the recommendation to feed the whole oats & hulled sunflower seeds. So ... I'd logic that to mean the normal recommendation of no more than 10% "scratch" isn't necessarily bad, but it shouldn't be too carbohydrate/corn-based or have too much fiber (hulls, bran, etc.)? As I understand it, a lot of the big-brand commercial rations have a lot of this stuff in the feed as filler ...

How much fiber do whole oats have? I've read that feeding oats does help egg production, etc. I've been wondering why. Perhaps the fat in the oats? I found this quote at a horse nutrition site ...

"Whole oats, also called hulled or covered, have about 11-13% protein and 5% fat. If you have a growing horse, breeding horse, or horse doing moderate to heavy work, you will probably want higher protein. Hulless oats are available and contain about 27% more protein and 49% more fat than whole oats. They contain about 5% fiber as compared to about 10.5-12% fiber for whole oats, but a Cornell study showed that 40% of the fiber was digestible compared to 30% of the whole oats. (Your main source of fiber should be forage, though.) Hulless oats offer more than hulled oats when it comes to amino acids - 50% more methionine and 60% more lysine. Because hulless oats contain more digestible energy than whole oats, you will feed 1/4 less. Hulless oats are a natural horse grain since the oat itself grows with an envelope but not a hull - it is only to protect from temperature change. When it is ready to be harvested, the envelope falls down." http://www.pet-health-advisor.com/naturalhorsegrain.html

We should be getting our first order of custom milled, locally sourced, all-purpose poultry pellet soon. When planning this ration, I did a lot of reading about protein levels -- how much is too much vs. how much is optimal vs. how little is "limiting." It is interesting research because most info about feeding poultry is designed for maximum efficiency instead of maximum health. They don't really study past a certain threshold of "diminishing returns" unless they're trying to induce gout.

One resource suggested that heritage breeds need to be fed like poults ... 28% protein to start.

(http://www.livestockconservancy.org/index.php/heritage/internal/heritage-chicken-faq)

I wrote to them to ask about the science of that, and got a nice e-mail explaining that there is a farm having a lot of success with that kind of diet compared to farms using "cheaper" feeds, but the specific info about the high-protein ration is proprietary, and they couldn't really tell me more. So ... it's not "scientific" exactly ...

I think the best we can do with this big question is to share experiences.

The feed expert at the mill I've been working with says she really likes camelina oil (from a local source, where the camelian is locally grown, the oil & protein meal are separated using pressure, not chemicals, and are the final products ... this isn't a by-product of the jet fuel industry where lots of fancy chemicals are used). The Camelina oil is a stable Omega 3 oil, and has a really "fresh" green flavor ... I don't know if this type of oil has the specific type of fatty acids lacking in prepared poultry rations ... I'll have to try to find out. I know that too much camelina protein can give poultry products an "off" flavor, but I don't know about how much camelina oil is okay ... I'm guessing it needs to be used sparingly or you run into the normal problem of the stuff that gives good Omega 3s also produces a "fishy" flavor.

Back to the question of fatty livers ... When processing turkeys (Broad Breasted Bronze), I noticed the males and females store their fat completely differently. The females have more fat in the body cavity and the liver is a lot more fatty (more orange compared to the males'), the males have fat in the skin instead of inside the body cavity. The turkeys all get the same feed, and the hens are a LOT more active than the males & do more foraging rather than just wolfing down the feed (we let the turkeys free range and they are excellent at finding a wide variety of foods, and hiding spots for their eggs), so I'd expect the hens to be "healthier" looking inside. Funny what hormones can do.

The feed we've settled on is about 19% protein with fish meal, local grains & legumes, is corn-free (and soy-free so it can easily be GMO free). We'll feed extra fish meal to poults if we get those again, and I'm debating if I should also supplement the Delaware chicks/breeders with more of the fish meal, too. The scratch I've been considering pairing it with (to encourage the birds to "make their beds," so it is fed very conservatively) will also be corn-free ... it has a higher protein level than most scratches, and a wider variety of ingredients (it seems to be the widest variety of local grains/seeds/legumes passing through the mill at any given time, minus GMO crops). I know it has sunflower seeds, but I don't know if they are hulled or de-hulled. I still have some questions about the scratch I need to work through with the mill ... I need to have the proper scratch to cut the duck's rations down to the 16% protein level, and I have questions about "seeds" and ducks (lots of resources vaguely state that ducks & seeds don't mix).

Wow ... that got long.

Wow, I found someone who agonizes as much as I do about this!
I really do not understand what the guy was saying about the oats. He did recommend them but I'm not sure why. He also agreed with my research about the fats, particularly the sunflower oil.
The sunflower seeds were my idea. He confirmed that they should be fed hulled. He did not agree with the high protein - higher than 20%.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Wow, I found someone who agonizes as much as I do about this! 
I really do not understand what the guy was saying about the oats. He did recommend them but I'm not sure why. He also agreed with my research about the fats, particularly the sunflower oil.
The sunflower seeds were my idea. He confirmed that they should be fed hulled. He did not agree with the high protein - higher than 20%.

It's just that there is conflicting opinions out there, and I started trying to find out if there was any reliable information to back up those opinions. So I got to poking around.

Of course all bets are off once the birds are able to forage their own food. Then the feeding requirements can be very different than for the birds in confinement thst are studied in most of the available science. Some people with really great forage can hardly feed their birds without over feeding them.

Also, I sell eating eggs and some meat, so the customers have lots of preferences about how the birds are fed ... at that point I have to be able to explain or defend my choices ...

I was quite surprised by the breed conservancy group recommending starting the chicks on 28% protein. I had a hard time getting that protein level feed here (turkey starter). People treated me like I was crazy for asking for it, including the local sales reps for the big brands ... :/