Breeding Delawares to the Standard of Perfection

[LeslieDJoyce]

(Edited for brevity)

Breeding for Color Correction ... Specifically, I think, balancing the silver and the columbian so that the body of the bird is white (and stays white), specifically in pullets ...

I've got red, and that's the problem I'd love to get lots of opinions on.

...

Is my little corner of the line "doomed?"

How do I best move forward? @gjensen or @fowlman01 or anyone with enough genetics experience to tell me if this is fixable ... ?

Brainstorming ideas, please. I promise I won't try them all.

I'll start ...

I could just completely ignore color and breed for type. Period. And try to clean up color when I have type all straightened out.

I've been told to cross my line with Columbian Rock ... but I've also been told those are on the wrong base color, so I'll end up with dark fluff.

I've been told to cross them with Light Sussex ... but I've also been told we'll lose the yellow legs and skin if we do this.

My inclination is to breed the F5 hens that finish the molt with the whitest bodies back to their father (F4) and to one of their sons (F6) ... but I'd HOPED to narrow down that group more by type than color.

For anyone who understands these things, here is a link to a poultry genetics page at the bottom of which is conveniently listed the genetic makeup of Barred Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire, AND Delaware.

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html

And here is a link to a table of those genes.

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

 

[caychris]

I would think that pairing her with as white a male as you can get would do the trick for a number of the offspring.

Isnt it the silver gene you are really looking for here? Since both Silver and Barring are sex linked traits. I would suspect most of the issues are based on having improper male genetics.

From what I understand (which is probably less than you do) This hen with a proper pair of the male should see improvement in some of the daughters and would expect the males to further deviate from the desired coloring.

She almost looks to have lacing but expressed as white would be nice to get some closeups of the feathers themselves

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I would think that pairing her with as white a male as you can get would do the trick for a number of the offspring.

Isnt it the silver gene you are really looking for here? Since both Silver and Barring are sex linked traits. I would suspect most of the issues are based on having improper male genetics.

From what I understand (which is probably less than you do) This hen with a proper pair of the male should see improvement in some of the daughters and would expect the males to further deviate from the desired coloring.

She almost looks to have lacing but expressed as white would be nice to get some closeups of the feathers themselves

No way would I breed her. She was a cull last year when I had a lot fewer Delawares running around the property, she's still a cull, but a good example of what's going on with my breeding here -- she's the most exaggerated. What I'm looking to accomplish is eliminating the possibility of getting more culls like her in the future. I'm wondering how possible that is considering both of my starter trio females color-shifted to buff during their first adult molt.

 

[caychris]

No way would I breed her. She was a cull last year when I had a lot fewer Delawares running around the property, she's still a cull, but a good example of what's going on with my breeding here -- she's the most exaggerated. What I'm looking to accomplish is eliminating the possibility of getting more culls like her in the future. I'm wondering how possible that is considering both of my starter trio females color-shifted to buff during their first adult molt.

I was only mentioning using this female as representative of the desired type but not color. keeping type would be more important as I understand it and your post suggested how you wanted to address the color issues. Because the issues appear to be the result of issues with Silver and or Barring genes which are sex linked Id look back to the father bird as being more responsible for the bleed through thus even taking this bird ( good on type) would produced better offspring if paired with a male with better representative (Silver and Barring) genes.

This is one of the big problems in chicken breeding because males are so much harder to justify keeping.
Based on your recent posts about your males with too much barring it may be that coloring of the males in this breed is less of a problem to correct than those in the hens and correcting issues in the hens would take priority once you have better hens (right mix of sex linked genes) correcting the males will be easier.

 

[gjensen]

I'll start ...

I could just completely ignore color and breed for type. Period. And try to clean up color when I have type all straightened out.

I've been told to cross my line with Columbian Rock ... but I've also been told those are on the wrong base color, so I'll end up with dark fluff.

I've been told to cross them with Light Sussex ... but I've also been told we'll lose the yellow legs and skin if we do this.

My inclination is to breed the F5 hens that finish the molt with the whitest bodies back to their father (F4) and to one of their sons (F6) ... but I'd HOPED to narrow down that group more by type than color.

For anyone who understands these things, here is a link to a poultry genetics page at the bottom of which is conveniently listed the genetic makeup of Barred Plymouth Rock, New Hampshire, AND Delaware.

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html

And here is a link to a table of those genes.

http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

I am sorry that I missed this. I can provide a crude answer, but Cpartist could articulate a better answer. She is active with the same color. Her and I have discussed this before. If she does not see this herself, I will ask her to comment.

 

[gjensen]

No, it is not the end of the world yet. LOL. BUT, there are color faults that you do not want to set. The simplified forget color and worry about type is not completely thought out. That has long been perpetuated on this site, and it is not helpful. Type as a priority only, but never to the detriment of color.

 

[caychris]

No, it is not the end of the world yet. LOL. BUT, there are color faults that you do not want to set. The simplified forget color and worry about type is not completely thought out. That has long been perpetuated on this site, and it is not helpful. Type as a priority only, but never to the detriment of color.

That's been my thought quite a bit. Since the color and type genes seem to be independent you do not want to lose correct genes in the process of selecting for type. Or at least have a reasonable chance of correcting color issues. I think this is where a bit of sexual dymorphism comes into play since we rarely keep a large male populace around we need to be sure we have enough of the correct color genes remaining in our male lines (especially when dealing with barring issues). Ive always been suspect about building the barn then painting it because where are you going to get "pure" paint. If color isnt a concern then it is highly likely you may strip out genes needed later in the program. Which means backward steps or worse when you do begin focusing on color. I think you really have to know where you are going to get your paint from before you start especially with complex color patterns and especially ones where the color interactions are sex linked.

Having a slightly over or under barred male may be the thing to correct some color issues in the female and vice versa. Since barring was introduced on the Males side and the Columbian patter from the female side of the initial cross. I think its important to not dismiss some of the early generation off color birds because they are probably still carrying some of the needed genes that need to be filtered through breeding. Only breeding will tell you whats hiding under the feathers. Some color issues are easier to fix than others and knowing how to fix the color issue is the more important piece if you are going to address it later.

 

[gjensen]

That's been my thought quite a bit. Since the color and type genes seem to be independent you do not want to lose correct genes in the process of selecting for type. Or at least have a reasonable chance of correcting color issues. I think this is where a bit of sexual dymorphism comes into play since we rarely keep a large male populace around we need to be sure we have enough of the correct color genes remaining in our male lines (especially when dealing with barring issues). Ive always been suspect about building the barn then painting it because where are you going to get "pure" paint. If color isnt a concern then it is highly likely you may strip out genes needed later in the program. Which means backward steps or worse when you do begin focusing on color. I think you really have to know where you are going to get your paint from before you start especially with complex color patterns and especially ones where the color interactions are sex linked.

Having a slightly over or under barred male may be the thing to correct some color issues in the female and vice versa. Since barring was introduced on the Males side and the Columbian patter from the female side of the initial cross. I think its important to not dismiss some of the early generation off color birds because they are probably still carrying some of the needed genes that need to be filtered through breeding. Only breeding will tell you whats hiding under the feathers. Some color issues are easier to fix than others and knowing how to fix the color issue is the more important piece if you are going to address it later.

I have not worked out for myself, some of the details of this color/pattern. I try not to remark specifically. I get this color, but I am lacking a practical perspective.

I feel safe to say that you will always be balancing the black. Until these birds are consistently very well marked, it will be some push and pull.

You are right to be concerned about losing specific characteristics. Who wants to rebuild them to paint them? Who wants to go outside to risk years of hard work to regain traits that may or may not be available?

You will learn to evaluate your males for particular pens. I would not be surprised to learn that some decide to double mate this color.

I would enjoy seeing a more involved discussion on the challenges of this color that was or more less on going. Most can select for type. They are past that stage. This group has some bright people. Now it is mastering this color. And the judges and consultants may or may not mastered this color themselves.

Over and again, I tempted to pick this breed up. I would like to master this color. I am considering doing it bantams, just to master the color. There is more to it than we sometimes realize.

Mastering a breed like this takes decades. I have benefited from other's experiences.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I've borrowed a couple lines from the links I provided earlier ...

That's breed in the first column, autosoumal genes in the second, and sex-linked genes in the third.

Barred Plymouth Rock
E/E, Co/Co, w/w

K, S, B, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. The slow feathering gene, K, is believed to aid in obtaining a cleaner barring. Barred Rocks have yellow shanks because of the dermal melanin inhibiting property of Cuckoo barring. Without this, the breed would have near black shanks with yellow soles.​

New Hampshire
eWh/eWh, Co/Co, Mh/Mh, w/w

s+, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. A primary difference between New Hampshire and Rhode Island Red is the wheaten allele at the E locus in the New Hamps.​

Delaware
eb/eb, Co/Co, w/w

B, S, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. Delawares have Barred Rock and New Hampshire genetics.​

The info on the individual genes, all the genes listed above for both parent breeds ...

The E-locus alleles E Often called 'extended black', 'nigrum' or 'self black'. Extends black, changes red to black, red inhibitor.​

Columbian Co Incompletely dominant.Confines black to hackle and tail in both sexes (called Columbian restriction). Thought to cause a gradient in color from head to tail. Modifies Wheaten to Buff Columbian. Has no effect on extended black, E.​

Skin Color w Yellow skin color. Recessive.​

Feathering Rate Genes

K​

Late feathering gene​

Silver and Red-Gold S This gene is called 'silver'. Inhibits red pigment, pheomelanin. The expression of silver is sometimes affected by hormonal levels and is considered to be incompletely dominant and highly influenced by modifying genes.​

Sex-linked barring B Barring, cuckoo barring. Dominant. Causes white barring pattern in red and black, sometimes used as a black inhibitor, most notably in Leghorns. Cuckoo barring is also an inhibitor of tissue pigmentation and is responsible for the yellow shanks of Barred Rocks. Shanks of females can be darker. Barring shows a distinct dosage effect. B/B gives wider bars than heterozygotes have. Incorporation of the slow feathering gene results in a cleaner, more sharply defined barring.​

Foot Color Id Light foot color. Dominant. Inhibits dermal melanin. Reported to have little influence on shank/foot color in birds with dark shanks due to E/E​

The E-locus alleles eWh Dominant wheaten. Female body varies from light salmon to wheat color, some black may be present. Males are wild-type.​

Mahogany Mh Dominant. Mahogany restricts eumelanin and enhances the color of red. Rhode Island Red is a good example. Restricts black in the back and wing of both males and females. Down color seems to be unaffected by mahogany.​

Silver and Red-Gold s+ This gene is sometimes called 'gold'. Wild-type, recessive. Invokes red pigment.​

Genes common to both the parent breeds: Co/Co; w/w; and Id/Id.

So ... maybe the Co/Co (Columbian) isn't causing so much trouble for us as we (I) imagine. Maybe it is the "S" silver not balancing out the "s+" gold. Or the E (Extended Black) not changing the red to black. Or the "B" (Barring) vs. the

eWh​

/

eWh​

(Dominant Wheaten)...? It seems the barring genes are quite complex, and partially sex-linked. But then the S gene is "incompletely dominant."

I go completely numb when I start looking at genetics, but to my untrained eye it seems a lot can go wrong with Delawares from the knees up. Even if we start with "pure" birds. Kinda makes me annoyed that people have toyed with the genetics of the Delaware to the point where some lines have even lost the proper leg color (which should be the "easy" part). For now, I've chosen to not breed birds with salmon/red/buff/brown/brassy feathers, but am trying to not freak out over "too much black." Except, of course, that certain types of black feathers in my flock are for sure destined to be paired with salmon/buff/brown/red/brassy feathers, so I take them as fair warning and set those birds aside.

Any genetics buffs care to chime in here? Please?

Source links: http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html and http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

 

[caychris]

I've borrowed a couple lines from the links I provided earlier ...

That's breed in the first column, autosoumal genes in the second, and sex-linked genes in the third.

Barred Plymouth Rock
E/E, Co/Co, w/w

K, S, B, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. The slow feathering gene, K, is believed to aid in obtaining a cleaner barring. Barred Rocks have yellow shanks because of the dermal melanin inhibiting property of Cuckoo barring. Without this, the breed would have near black shanks with yellow soles.​

New Hampshire
eWh/eWh, Co/Co, Mh/Mh, w/w

s+, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. A primary difference between New Hampshire and Rhode Island Red is the wheaten allele at the E locus in the New Hamps.​

Delaware
eb/eb, Co/Co, w/w

B, S, Id
With polygenes for red ear lobe and brown eggshell color. Delawares have Barred Rock and New Hampshire genetics.​

The info on the individual genes, all the genes listed above for both parent breeds ...

The E-locus alleles E Often called 'extended black', 'nigrum' or 'self black'. Extends black, changes red to black, red inhibitor.​

Columbian Co Incompletely dominant.Confines black to hackle and tail in both sexes (called Columbian restriction). Thought to cause a gradient in color from head to tail. Modifies Wheaten to Buff Columbian. Has no effect on extended black, E.​

Skin Color w Yellow skin color. Recessive.​

Feathering Rate Genes

K​

Late feathering gene​

Silver and Red-Gold S This gene is called 'silver'. Inhibits red pigment, pheomelanin. The expression of silver is sometimes affected by hormonal levels and is considered to be incompletely dominant and highly influenced by modifying genes.​

Sex-linked barring B Barring, cuckoo barring. Dominant. Causes white barring pattern in red and black, sometimes used as a black inhibitor, most notably in Leghorns. Cuckoo barring is also an inhibitor of tissue pigmentation and is responsible for the yellow shanks of Barred Rocks. Shanks of females can be darker. Barring shows a distinct dosage effect. B/B gives wider bars than heterozygotes have. Incorporation of the slow feathering gene results in a cleaner, more sharply defined barring.​

Foot Color Id Light foot color. Dominant. Inhibits dermal melanin. Reported to have little influence on shank/foot color in birds with dark shanks due to E/E​

The E-locus alleles eWh Dominant wheaten. Female body varies from light salmon to wheat color, some black may be present. Males are wild-type.​

Mahogany Mh Dominant. Mahogany restricts eumelanin and enhances the color of red. Rhode Island Red is a good example. Restricts black in the back and wing of both males and females. Down color seems to be unaffected by mahogany.​

Silver and Red-Gold s+ This gene is sometimes called 'gold'. Wild-type, recessive. Invokes red pigment.​

Genes common to both the parent breeds: Co/Co; w/w; and Id/Id.

So ... maybe the Co/Co (Columbian) isn't causing so much trouble for us as we (I) imagine. Maybe it is the "S" silver not balancing out the "s+" gold. Or the E (Extended Black) not changing the red to black. Or the "B" (Barring) vs. the

eWh​

/

eWh​

(Dominant Wheaten)...? It seems the barring genes are quite complex, and partially sex-linked. But then the S gene is "incompletely dominant."

I go completely numb when I start looking at genetics, but to my untrained eye it seems a lot can go wrong with Delawares from the knees up. Even if we start with "pure" birds. Kinda makes me annoyed that people have toyed with the genetics of the Delaware to the point where some lines have even lost the proper leg color (which should be the "easy" part). For now, I've chosen to not breed birds with salmon/red/buff/brown/brassy feathers, but am trying to not freak out over "too much black." Except, of course, that certain types of black feathers in my flock are for sure destined to be paired with salmon/buff/brown/red/brassy feathers, so I take them as fair warning and set those birds aside.

Any genetics buffs care to chime in here? Please?

Source links: http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page2.html and http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page3.html

Thank you this concise analysis really helps. I agree Silver and Barring are probably the most concerning. Co also being incompletely dominant and carried by both parents but visible in the NH and not in the PBR could be something but since there are other issues its not likely the direct cause.