Breeding Dogs

[Bettacreek]

Quote:
I'm sure your father had healthy huskies, paid attention to the genetic deformities in the breed (and made certain not to lay something preventable like that on his puppies and on unsuspecting puppy buyers), and that he made sure the offspring/products of his breeding venture went to happy homes, fit in, and didn't end up being burdens to society at the shelters or euthanized for being poorly trained.

Those are the minimum perimeters I personally set for someone who breeds dogs. Anyone less is irresponsible in my book, to bring life into the world w/o a plan to help that life be a happy and successful one. And if that offends anyone here, please go visit a shelter tomorrow and extend a hand to give those dogs hope...and then tell me you disagree with me. Or call a tired rescue worker and ask them what they get for their volunteer work and then we can discuss further what is right and wrong with the dog world in America nowadays.

They were healthy to the eye and a common vet. They had no major illnesses, but they were not genetically tested. He bought his breeders from random breeders in the paper. Call him irresponsible for that all you want, but a dog is no different from any other animal. They have their own specific needs. As far as rescue shelters, not everyone wants a random dog from the shelter who probably has issues which made them unacceptable pets. And, yes, I used to volunteer at the shelter and even adopted one of the dogs who I thought was unadoptable (blind, deaf and had major food aggression issues).

 

[alpinefarm]

Quote:
I have never known a dog breeder or anyone else who paid or charged $2000 for a dog. Maybe I'm not traveling in the circles you speak of, but I'm afraid I would have to consider that quite an exaggeration for most breeding stock/dogs of most breeds. And most breeders I'm acquainted with *do* sell their pet quality puppies for a much lower price than they sell their breeding stock for. But if you expect someone who values what they produce, tests their stock for health and soundness issues, presents them to the public at great effort and expense, to then sell a puppy or dog with significant flaws to someone who intends to continue breeding those flaws, with that original breeder's name right there on the pedigree, that is a bit of a stretch, really, to expect that of a knowledgeable breeder devoted to their breed.

In my experience, in the dogs I've rescued, most have come from puppy mills (including "family mills") via pet shops or from "backyard breeders" ie, folks who don't involve themselves in the dog world--don't get out of their backyard, so to speak, and usually aren't interested in continuing education or thoughtful choices). The ones that end up in rescue are almost always from "breeders" who don't care to know what happens to their puppies once the money is in hand. And it is actually true that often they have charged *more* for their product than the breeders who are devoted to doing the best job they can.

The world is changing out of the dire need for dogs to be bred thoughtfully. Breeders are being run out of the ring and the field and off the obedience mat if they "don't take care of their own" and make thoughtful choices, both in breeding and in selling their dogs.
It's about time, I'd say...

 

[redhen]

Quote:
I have never known a dog breeder or anyone else who paid or charged $2000 for a dog. Maybe I'm not traveling in the circles you speak of, but I'm afraid I would have to consider that quite an exaggeration for most breeding stock/dogs of most breeds. And most breeders I'm acquainted with *do* sell their pet quality puppies for a much lower price than they sell their breeding stock for. But if you expect someone who values what they produce, tests their stock for health and soundness issues, presents them to the public at great effort and expense, to then sell a puppy or dog with significant flaws to someone who intends to continue breeding those flaws, with that original breeder's name right there on the pedigree, that is a bit of a stretch, really, to expect that of a knowledgeable breeder devoted to their breed.

In my experience, in the dogs I've rescued, most have come from puppy mills (including "family mills") via pet shops or from "backyard breeders" ie, folks who don't involve themselves in the dog world--don't get out of their backyard, so to speak, and usually aren't interested in continuing education or thoughtful choices). The ones that end up in rescue are almost always from "breeders" who don't care to know what happens to their puppies once the money is in hand. And it is actually true that often they have charged *more* for their product than the breeders who are devoted to doing the best job they can.

The world is changing out of the dire need for dogs to be bred thoughtfully. Breeders are being run out of the ring and the field and off the obedience mat if they "don't take care of their own" and make thoughtful choices, both in breeding and in selling their dogs.
It's about time, I'd say...

No exaggeration..get out in the world. Breeders ARE charging that..and MORE.. I just was looking at cocker spaniels.. they wanted $1500-$1900...And guess what they were selling the pet quality ones for? $800 - $975... because the ads said nothing them being show quality...
And again, i say..if you care so much about your breed...make them more accesible to normal people...so people dont have to go to these so called (by you) scum breeders..

 

[Bettacreek]

I've seen pet qualities going for $1200, shows going for over $2k. So, no, that's really not an exaggeration.

I have to agree with Redhen. I've seen "top breeders" in the show world dogging on anyone who advertised in common classifieds. According to these top show breeders, the pet owners should find them, they shouldn't ever advertise, and if they do advertise in a common place, then they're bad breeders, no matter how they actually breed. I just get sick of the constant badgering of others simply because they don't do things the way that someone else sees fit.

 

[alpinefarm]

Quote:
You are very welcome to buy from anyone you want to buy from and to buy any dog you please, anywhere you please. The prices you are talking about may be for some very in-demand breeds. But if you want a dog from a thoughtful, hard-working breeder, then I guess you also have that choice. You can support their efforts or you can not. I find your tone very hostile. I don't have any problem with a breeder who wants to give puppies away for free, as long as they are willing to find good homes for the lives they've brought into the world. I have given 30 years of my life to rescueing dogs that nobody took responsibility for. I don't know what your problem is, but perhaps you can suggest better ways of controlling the dog population than spay/neutering. And if you want to argue that you want to breed unsound or unhealthy dogs, geeze, people are doing it all the time. Just be honest with those you sell to so they don't get their hopes up.

Bettacreek wrote:
I just get sick of the constant badgering of others simply because they don't do things the way that someone else sees fit.

In my breed, basenijis, there are three genetic disorders that cause blindness. All are able to be diagnosed in a $15 puppy eye exam. Some breeders in the past used to avoid doing the eye tests, because it meant disappointment, loss of reputation perhaps, or having to decide what to do with afflicted puppies. In my view of "right and wrong," a breeder who cared about those puppies, and their future owners, would be "wrong" not to take advantage of such a test. If that breeder didn't do it and then placed an afflicted puppy in a home with someone, for instance, who dreamed of doing field work with that long-awaited-dog-friend-companion, I would call that "wrong" too.

I get really tired too, Bettacreek, of things I've dealt with 1st hand in the dog world. I'm so tired of seeing abused dogs. I'm awful tired of seeing dogs die young from a genetic kidney disorder. I'm sick and tired of seeing unsuspecting, kind humans facing $3000 in vet bills and more to try to help a young, hip dysplasic dog that they've come to adore and can't bear putting down but also can't bear seeing the dog drag his body along the floor. And no recourse to the person who bred that dog without testing its parents hips.

There are some genetic tests that are very expensive and yet many breeders test anyway because they want to do their job well in providing a sound companion to the clientele they serve. There are some disorders that are not able to be tested for and so breeders comb pedigrees and make decisions based on educated guesses.

I personally believe (please take note of my "belief" statements, as I don't have any desire to put others' real life experiences or knowledgeable beliefs down) that dogs and other companion animals are not really in the same category as barnyard animals that live for food production. We take them into our homes, we create friends of them, we share our lives closely with them. And I personally believe that they deserve thoughtful consideration from those who "play God" and put themselves in the arena of being stewards over their lives.

My four dogs are all rescues, two purebred, two mixed. I did too many shelter walks...kept coming home with somebody. You are right, not everybody wants a dog that has been mistreated or poorly trained...they don't want to have to undue, or live with, someone else's dirty work. Kudos to you for being willing to. I just so want to try to "stem the tide" of all of that...so I beg people to be thoughtful in what they breed and I beg people to be thoughtful in how they treat the dogs they buy.

I'm sorry, redhen, if the dream dog you want to buy and breed is expensive. It shouldn't be that way. I don't have an easy answer for you. I can't buy my dream horse right now because of how much he would cost. But I don't denigrade the horse breeder who's got him. I'm amazed at the knowledge that breeder has and at how hard he's worked to get what he gets when a foal is born.

 

[Terri]

i agree with Alpine, if i was to buy a dog, i would buy the best possible, but i am in the habit of picking up strays. I have 4 now, all very good dogs with training. I hope to breed chickens one day, i got my chicks in march, and have already been to 2 shows, i research all the time, and have met a few judges. I find it very interesting, but will not breed for sometime.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
You are very welcome to buy from anyone you want to buy from and to buy any dog you please, anywhere you please. The prices you are talking about may be for some very in-demand breeds. But if you want a dog from a thoughtful, hard-working breeder, then I guess you also have that choice. You can support their efforts or you can not. I find your tone very hostile. I don't have any problem with a breeder who wants to give puppies away for free, as long as they are willing to find good homes for the lives they've brought into the world. I have given 30 years of my life to rescueing dogs that nobody took responsibility for. I don't know what your problem is, but perhaps you can suggest better ways of controlling the dog population than spay/neutering. And if you want to argue that you want to breed unsound or unhealthy dogs, geeze, people are doing it all the time. Just be honest with those you sell to so they don't get their hopes up.

Bettacreek wrote:
I just get sick of the constant badgering of others simply because they don't do things the way that someone else sees fit.

In my breed, basenijis, there are three genetic disorders that cause blindness. All are able to be diagnosed in a $15 puppy eye exam. Some breeders in the past used to avoid doing the eye tests, because it meant disappointment, loss of reputation perhaps, or having to decide what to do with afflicted puppies. In my view of "right and wrong," a breeder who cared about those puppies, and their future owners, would be "wrong" not to take advantage of such a test. If that breeder didn't do it and then placed an afflicted puppy in a home with someone, for instance, who dreamed of doing field work with that long-awaited-dog-friend-companion, I would call that "wrong" too.

I get really tired too, Bettacreek, of things I've dealt with 1st hand in the dog world. I'm so tired of seeing abused dogs. I'm awful tired of seeing dogs die young from a genetic kidney disorder. I'm sick and tired of seeing unsuspecting, kind humans facing $3000 in vet bills and more to try to help a young, hip dysplasic dog that they've come to adore and can't bear putting down but also can't bear seeing the dog drag his body along the floor. And no recourse to the person who bred that dog without testing its parents hips.

There are some genetic tests that are very expensive and yet many breeders test anyway because they want to do their job well in providing a sound companion to the clientele they serve. There are some disorders that are not able to be tested for and so breeders comb pedigrees and make decisions based on educated guesses.

I personally believe (please take note of my "belief" statements, as I don't have any desire to put others' real life experiences or knowledgeable beliefs down) that dogs and other companion animals are not really in the same category as barnyard animals that live for food production. We take them into our homes, we create friends of them, we share our lives closely with them. And I personally believe that they deserve thoughtful consideration from those who "play God" and put themselves in the arena of being stewards over their lives.

My four dogs are all rescues, two purebred, two mixed. I did too many shelter walks...kept coming home with somebody. You are right, not everybody wants a dog that has been mistreated or poorly trained...they don't want to have to undue, or live with, someone else's dirty work. Kudos to you for being willing to. I just so want to try to "stem the tide" of all of that...so I beg people to be thoughtful in what they breed and I beg people to be thoughtful in how they treat the dogs they buy.

I'm sorry, redhen, if the dream dog you want to buy and breed is expensive. It shouldn't be that way. I don't have an easy answer for you. I can't buy my dream horse right now because of how much he would cost. But I don't denigrade the horse breeder who's got him. I'm amazed at the knowledge that breeder has and at how hard he's worked to get what he gets when a foal is born.

I sense hostility from you also.. (because i dont agree with you..) And i'm sorry for that..
And, no, i dont breed dogs or any animals. Theres too many dogs in shelters already...
Its not my thing. Good luck, if its yours.

Also..No, i dont begrudge the breeders that charge high prices for their pups....
what i was saying was..if you charge such high prices for your dogs..dont cry about back yard breeders that most people will be able to afford. Thats all..

 

[protodon]

Such a hot topic! I am glad there are a lot of people out there that feel strongly about dogs and their care and breeding. I think it's because humans and dogs go way back and our history is very closely intertwined. I only wish more people felt the same way about dogs. There are two sides to any argument and I think that anyone, such as myself, that is on here looking for info about breeding dogs is already doing better than those puppy mills and backyard breeders who are in it for a quick buck and just put any 2 dogs together and slap a price on their puppies and move them out to make room for the next litter. Whether some people like it or not, there will always be people who want to breed dogs for good or for bad. And whatever their intention is, they have to start somewhere. Some of the top names in dog breeding/showing of a particular breed knew nothing about dog breeding at some point in their life. So there is no reason to feel that the pursuit of knowledge or the intention of breeding will inevitably produce something negative. I still think it's funny how talking about dog breeding gets people riled out. I know talking about breeding poultry or livestock or even cats wouldn't garner the same reaction. I think dogs are just so innocent and we feel the need to protect them. It's not at all a bad thing.

 

[Chickmate]

Quote:
Keeping in mind that this is a "friendly" site, I beg you to reconsider a way of making money. I have been rescuing dogs for years and have seen the inside of too many shelters. When millions of dogs and cats are euthanized every single day in this country because there are simply not enough homes for all of them, I wonder how anyone can justify bringing even one more animal into it. As someone suggested, if you want a BC, rescue the one the euthanasia needle is waiting for.

 

[chinbunny]

Each person is going to have their own way of doing things when it comes to breeding and raising their animals. A lot of good dog breeders do not do genetics testing. I believe that is something that is a new thing anyhow. In the past dog breeders relied on their own knowledge of genetics. Not something a vet would tell them.

The classifieds thing is a pet peeve of mine. I do not think it is irresponsible to advertise your pet quality puppies in the paper. There is nothing wrong with it. They have to find a way to sell the extra pups, so how else are they going to do it?

As an animal breeder, I do not believe that breeding a litter displaces dogs, or any other animal in a shelter. And it does not add to pet overpopulation. A lot of those dogs in shelters are from people that let their mutts run all over the place, and get bred every time they are in heat. Responsible dog breeders would not allow that. A lot of shelters are also responsible for pet oeverpopulation as well. Esp those that import dogs from other countries, across state lines, etc. They also do wrongfull raids where there is no evidence of animal abuse other then it was being bred. They also hoard, and abuse animals. The toronto humane society, and the PA spca shelters are proof enough of that. google them sometime. You will get a real eye opener. Esp with the toronto one.Now, not all shelters operate like that. But to place blame on one group of people (breeders, and pet owners) is completely wrong.


There is no such thing is a backyard breeder either. Its just something the animal rights groups made up to label all breeders that don't do things their way as bad people. The word puppy mill is also questionable too. Sure there are a few bad facilities out there, but to them, all breeders are mills(unless they do things their way).

To the OP, one thing you may end up having to deal with is 'bad' rescue groups, or animal activists, should you decide to breed dogs. Most good rescues won't bother you. However, there are those that are very rabidly anti-breeding. You may end up running into them at some point. Make sure you are following your county laws, and such. Some areas may require that you have a kennel license.

Otherwise, good luck on finding your starting stock.

I hope you get something you like, it works out for you.