BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

Could it be that the prolapse was more due to her early laying and too large of eggs rather than the conformation of her body? I've had chickens for 40 yrs now and never once had a prolapse, many different breeds kept, some laid some seriously huge eggs(one even had 4 yolks) and all of them hatchery until recent years. Hatchery, meaning all of them were pinch tailed birds, except the WRs and even they were more pinch tailed than a standard bred WR.

I have had hatchery Australorp, RIR, Minorca, Black SL, and EE. Compared to the breeder Wyandotte, Cochin and Buckeye, no difference in egg laying ability or size of eggs.The difference was in the recurrence of knock knees, wry tail, and runted growth of the hatchery offspring. Have never had a prolapse.
Therefore, I don't hatch from the layer flock which includes second string hens from the breeder offspring.
Surprisingly, my Bantams are all breeder flocks and the egg size is big for bantam breeds...again no issues.

That being said, I select hens for the breed flocks that have a 4 finger width between legs and a hand length between tip of keel and vent to allow for plenty of adominal space. These hens are good large egg layers with very nicely weighted eggs that produce healthy chicks. I attribute that to ample room for eggs development and food digestion

This hen that I had to kill is the only vent prolapse that we've had. I am sure that laying eggs on the larger spectrum compared to her pinch tailed relatives did contribute to the problem. But I've got other hens that lay larger sized eggs who are not pinched in the tail, that are several years old, and have no issues - so I do think that being pinched in the tail can cause a problem if all the right conditions are met. This one was only a little over a year when I had to kill her.

That's the thing with chickens - there are so many variables and you have to get the right combination of conditions together to see a good or bad outcome sometimes.

Like NanaKat, I examine birds prior to picking the breeders - even the males are looked at, including being wide all the way from shoulder to butt, if they are going to make the cut to be a breeder bird. Yes, their breed standard calls for this, because they are dual purpose birds meant to be decent layers and decent meat birds all in one body. But when you're looking at birds for production, I think it's important to look at the things that could cause problems in the long run either in pinched tails resulting in egg binding or prolapses if the right conditions align themselves, or in not having a skeletal system that is well built to handle the strain of being a meat bird. People who have a skeletal system that is mal-aligned are going to have more problems in the long run, because the stress on their bones/joints and muscles are not going to be normal. They are going to have abnormal stress placed on their body which will cause more pain and cause further bone and muscle issues because their body is trying to compensate for the abnormality. So in a pinched tail bird, which can be inherited, that could be more stress on the bird's body which in turn may not be as comfortable for them when you are pushing them to achieve certain goals. And it could also decrease their ability to carry a good amount of meat on their frame or cause problems related to laying if they lay normal sized eggs but those eggs are too large for their body to handle.

In seeing the number of people, including my non-serious breeding chicken friends, who experience issues in their small flocks, while at any given time I've got around 100 adult chicken hens in addition to turkeys and guineas, and yet my flock's illnesses/seemingly idiopathic abnormalities are rare, tells me that there is something to be said for selective breeding and certain husbandry methods. But it takes work and it can often mean killing birds, which many people aren't willing to do. I don't think that having pinched tailed birds for the average backyard chicken keeper is the most horrible thing in the world - plenty of chickens do just fine with pinched tails. But I think for someone who is breeding seriously, even for meat production, a pinched tail is something to be concerned with because there are issues that can come up with the birds and you may not get them to reach their full potential if you ignore pinched tails completely. And when you're trying to avoid the need to constantly get new blood into your flock, there may come a time when you breed yourself into a corner if you let certain flaws, especially musculoskeletal flaws, go completely unchecked. A bird's skeleton is its foundation and you want a sturdy foundation for them to be based off of for maximum performance and bird comfort.
 
I'll be making my first attempt at breeding for egg laying qualities this coming fall with Barred Rocks. I've been reading a lot about the subject and one of the things I know you have to be religious about is record keeping. That sounds easy enough and is when it comes to the father, but what the heck do you do when it comes to identifying the mother since it seems logical/more efficient to put a cock in with a couple of hens rather than breeding one hen at a time? I'm thinking I could list the possible mothers when breeding future cock offspring back to the mother but this wouldn't be exactly accurate. What do most breeders do? Breed one hen at a time maybe? Any info would be appreciated.
There are some OCD people that will keep hens separate and keep track of mothers as well as fathers. Frankly, I don't find this to be useful. Chickens need other chickens around so unless you're sticking the hen with another bird that lays different color eggs or such so you know which eggs are which, those are going to be lonely hens. Not to mention, it's a lot of work and I have not yet seen people who do such micromanagement of their flock to have achieve their goals any better, faster, or easier. You can try trap nesting to get eggs separated out, but you have to be available to frequently check if a hen needs to be let out of the nest box, especially when it is warm weather. And you have to make sure that the trap nest is set up so that there is no way a second hen can squiggle her way inside the nest box with another hen. I have trap nest fronts that I keep just in case I want to put them on a nest box, but I have not yet felt the need to do so. For the breeding that I do, nothing has come up where it is imperative that I know the EXACT hen that a bird came from.

Most people I know of breed like I do - throw a few of your chosen hens into a pen and put a cock in there with them. When you're breeding for the various traits, and I think I remember you said that you are wanting to breed to the SOP as well as for your Rocks' utility purpose, this means that you are going to be making compromises. Meaning that you are going to make breeding choices based on maintaining/improving the good points in each of your breeder bird's offspring, while minimizing/offsetting flaws. You can't focus on just one trait entirely with every breeding. If you do, you'll wind up with lots of bad traits that go unchecked because you were had tunnel vision on one particular trait. It's a balancing act when you're making your breeding choices. And the more traits that you are particular about, the slower it is to see results in the offspring. If you only care about egg production - lots of eggs/big eggs, that is easy to breed for. But if you are wanting your Rocks to be close to their breed standard for appearance, and to be a fully dual purpose bird to provide you meat and eggs, you have a ton of traits to balance when you make your breeding selections. If you get so caught up with the micromanagement/micro-record keeping thing, you're going to make yourself frustrated without seeing a lot of result for the time spent.
 
There are some OCD people that will keep hens separate and keep track of mothers as well as fathers. Frankly, I don't find this to be useful. Chickens need other chickens around so unless you're sticking the hen with another bird that lays different color eggs or such so you know which eggs are which, those are going to be lonely hens. Not to mention, it's a lot of work and I have not yet seen people who do such micromanagement of their flock to have achieve their goals any better, faster, or easier. You can try trap nesting to get eggs separated out, but you have to be available to frequently check if a hen needs to be let out of the nest box, especially when it is warm weather. And you have to make sure that the trap nest is set up so that there is no way a second hen can squiggle her way inside the nest box with another hen. I have trap nest fronts that I keep just in case I want to put them on a nest box, but I have not yet felt the need to do so. For the breeding that I do, nothing has come up where it is imperative that I know the EXACT hen that a bird came from.

Most people I know of breed like I do - throw a few of your chosen hens into a pen and put a cock in there with them. When you're breeding for the various traits, and I think I remember you said that you are wanting to breed to the SOP as well as for your Rocks' utility purpose, this means that you are going to be making compromises. Meaning that you are going to make breeding choices based on maintaining/improving the good points in each of your breeder bird's offspring, while minimizing/offsetting flaws. You can't focus on just one trait entirely with every breeding. If you do, you'll wind up with lots of bad traits that go unchecked because you were had tunnel vision on one particular trait. It's a balancing act when you're making your breeding choices. And the more traits that you are particular about, the slower it is to see results in the offspring. If you only care about egg production - lots of eggs/big eggs, that is easy to breed for. But if you are wanting your Rocks to be close to their breed standard for appearance, and to be a fully dual purpose bird to provide you meat and eggs, you have a ton of traits to balance when you make your breeding selections. If you get so caught up with the micromanagement/micro-record keeping thing, you're going to make yourself frustrated without seeing a lot of result for the time spent.
Thanks much for the detailed reply. I totally agree with the method of putting a couple of your best hens in with your best cock and just noting what you did and treating all the mothers as a possible dams. I figure that way you can't go wrong, and if anything your resulting birds' inbreeding coefficient will be <= X but no chance of being greater. That'll work fine for my purposes. Like you were saying too, my goals are (1) quality eggs and (2) breed characteristics (SOP); I read I'll end up with a headache breeding to two different standards but I think I'll be ok since eggs carry more weight in my case. What I'm thinking to do is rank each bird based on their qualities and give more weight to production. So for example I'll score say a max of "5" for physical features that lend to egg laying such as pelvis width, etc. and a high of "3" for breed characteristics in the SOP. Then I'll add up the scores. Or I might rank the high 10 birds based on egg laying ability and then from those rank the best 3 based on the SOP. I'll do my best not to get tunnel vision too because I can see how that would lead to a lot of frustration. Part of my problem is I'm an auditor so I get carried away with record keeping details if I'm not careful.
 
Thanks much for the detailed reply. I totally agree with the method of putting a couple of your best hens in with your best cock and just noting what you did and treating all the mothers as a possible dams. I figure that way you can't go wrong, and if anything your resulting birds' inbreeding coefficient will be <= X but no chance of being greater. That'll work fine for my purposes. Like you were saying too, my goals are (1) quality eggs and (2) breed characteristics (SOP); I read I'll end up with a headache breeding to two different standards but I think I'll be ok since eggs carry more weight in my case. What I'm thinking to do is rank each bird based on their qualities and give more weight to production. So for example I'll score say a max of "5" for physical features that lend to egg laying such as pelvis width, etc. and a high of "3" for breed characteristics in the SOP. Then I'll add up the scores. Or I might rank the high 10 birds based on egg laying ability and then from those rank the best 3 based on the SOP. I'll do my best not to get tunnel vision too because I can see how that would lead to a lot of frustration. Part of my problem is I'm an auditor so I get carried away with record keeping details if I'm not careful.
Since you are working with a breed that was meant for dual purpose utility, breeding for appearance characteristics and production goes hand in hand nicely. The APA has figured out that there has been too much of an emphasis on appearance for too long and that the old breeds are losing their ability to meet their intended usage. This newest SOP that was just published, is supposed to have more breeding for production information in it to start emphasizing production again - not just have people making birds with pretty feathers and such. The judges are supposed to be judging for utility purpose as well, although it is more difficult to determine egg laying ability than it is meat production when you've got a bird at a show - unless the bird decides to plop an egg in the judge's hand.

I understand about the record keeping - I'm an *old* nurse and documentation is in my blood. And in my research well before even getting my birds and before breeding them, I was so intent on the minute aspects of what I thought I needed to know and do, that I drove myself nuts. Once I got into the hands on part of breeding, I realized that there is really only so much information that you need to work with in order to achieve your desired results, and with as much work as it takes to do any kind of serious breeding, over-thinking and over-documenting is a waste of energy unless your flock is tiny. It is a lot of work, but I made it harder for myself until I realized that it didn't need to be micromanaged to the point that I was at and that I can get the same results with less work. Getting to know your birds helps, and raising only one breed makes it easier to do. You can still identify the variables at play in your flock without having to constantly obtain and record data. You learn how to streamline your processes and know the important times of when you need to do your hands-on evaluations of each bird and be able to cull through them and only keep the data that is most important for future use. It takes getting into the swing of things to see where you need to be nitpicky and where you can let things go as far as data management.
 
Since you are working with a breed that was meant for dual purpose utility, breeding for appearance characteristics and production goes hand in hand nicely. The APA has figured out that there has been too much of an emphasis on appearance for too long and that the old breeds are losing their ability to meet their intended usage. This newest SOP that was just published, is supposed to have more breeding for production information in it to start emphasizing production again - not just have people making birds with pretty feathers and such. The judges are supposed to be judging for utility purpose as well, although it is more difficult to determine egg laying ability than it is meat production when you've got a bird at a show - unless the bird decides to plop an egg in the judge's hand.

I understand about the record keeping - I'm an *old* nurse and documentation is in my blood. And in my research well before even getting my birds and before breeding them, I was so intent on the minute aspects of what I thought I needed to know and do, that I drove myself nuts. Once I got into the hands on part of breeding, I realized that there is really only so much information that you need to work with in order to achieve your desired results, and with as much work as it takes to do any kind of serious breeding, over-thinking and over-documenting is a waste of energy unless your flock is tiny. It is a lot of work, but I made it harder for myself until I realized that it didn't need to be micromanaged to the point that I was at and that I can get the same results with less work. Getting to know your birds helps, and raising only one breed makes it easier to do. You can still identify the variables at play in your flock without having to constantly obtain and record data. You learn how to streamline your processes and know the important times of when you need to do your hands-on evaluations of each bird and be able to cull through them and only keep the data that is most important for future use. It takes getting into the swing of things to see where you need to be nitpicky and where you can let things go as far as data management.
Copy that. I have the latest SOP - ordered it the same day I joined the APA but I haven't got to read any of it yet. It's on my reading list after I finish The ABC Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg Production, and Table Purposes (written 1919 I believe but a great book). Thanks for pointing that out because I was under the impression the SOP was all about characteristics for showing only. Showing isn't my cup-o-tea necessarily but I want to go to show's just to see the birds, network, and maybe learn more. If I had a good bird I wouldn't hesitate to take him/her to a show. Now that I know production is something they're judged on too I'm a lot more interested in breeding birds for shows. That's great to know. I think that's a good move on the APA's part since appearance alone really doesn't tell you much about a particular bird. Lots of people I know appear like they're good quality human with all their bling, etc., but they're not good specimens if you know what I mean.
 
Copy that. I have the latest SOP - ordered it the same day I joined the APA but I haven't got to read any of it yet. It's on my reading list after I finish The ABC Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg Production, and Table Purposes (written 1919 I believe but a great book). Thanks for pointing that out because I was under the impression the SOP was all about characteristics for showing only. Showing isn't my cup-o-tea necessarily but I want to go to show's just to see the birds, network, and maybe learn more. If I had a good bird I wouldn't hesitate to take him/her to a show. Now that I know production is something they're judged on too I'm a lot more interested in breeding birds for shows. That's great to know. I think that's a good move on the APA's part since appearance alone really doesn't tell you much about a particular bird. Lots of people I know appear like they're good quality human with all their bling, etc., but they're not good specimens if you know what I mean.

I hear ya! I'm not into showing. I go as a spectator but have not had the urge to actually show birds. But I feel like I would be doing my birds a disservice by ignoring the SOP appearance traits and only concentrating on production. I've seen the difference in the birds that we got from an SOP breeder and the birds we obtained that were bred for mainly for egg production - same breed but distinct differences. I found that our standard bred birds were better looking as far as type (conformation) and overall appearance, as well as more utilitarian for both the meat and egg aspect. The birds we got that had egg laying emphasized don't have as much meat on them, are smaller, and don't have the majestic look that they should have. Those birds went to the food-egg only flock and not for breeding. Granted, our standard bred birds don't lay as much as the others, but the fact that they can better be used for meat as well, and have a better overall appearance which is closer to their breed standard, makes up for them not laying every day without fail.

Those antique books are great to learn from. I haven't found much in the way of modern books that have a lot of the good anecdotal information about raising poultry like the old literature has.
 
I hear ya! I'm not into showing. I go as a spectator but have not had the urge to actually show birds. But I feel like I would be doing my birds a disservice by ignoring the SOP appearance traits and only concentrating on production. I've seen the difference in the birds that we got from an SOP breeder and the birds we obtained that were bred for mainly for egg production - same breed but distinct differences. I found that our standard bred birds were better looking as far as type (conformation) and overall appearance, as well as more utilitarian for both the meat and egg aspect. The birds we got that had egg laying emphasized don't have as much meat on them, are smaller, and don't have the majestic look that they should have. Those birds went to the food-egg only flock and not for breeding. Granted, our standard bred birds don't lay as much as the others, but the fact that they can better be used for meat as well, and have a better overall appearance which is closer to their breed standard, makes up for them not laying every day without fail.

Those antique books are great to learn from. I haven't found much in the way of modern books that have a lot of the good anecdotal information about raising poultry like the old literature has.
Yep - totally agree. We're both on the exact same page when it comes to what we want in our birds. The cock I bought from a breeder a few weeks ago is head-and-shoulders better looking than my best hatchery pullet. I feel like I'm going to have a spell every time I lay eyes on him - makes me dizzy from the crisp barring he has. On top of that he has the best disposition of any cock I've ever encountered - extremely docile and very well mannered toward the ladies. I definitely want to reproduce him. I totally agree about the importance of the bird's appearance being proper to the breed for dual purpose and not just egg-laying alone because when they get up in age we plan to eat every one, and a skinny, worn out bird won't even make for good stew. I feel the same way about the vegetables we grow - I'm not interested so much in size and volume as I am about quality and taste. With regard to my egg layers, I have plenty of birds so even if every one only laid an egg every 3 days we'd still have more than we need. But yeah, it seems like the big advertising push for birds is for record numbers of eggs and I guess that's why the sex links sell so well.
 
Finished our "Clear The Shelter" adoption event. I know these are not chickens, but we adopted out 29 Shelter Dogs and 26 Cats.
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I am so proud of all the folks that helped us place our pets in homes. 55 adoptions in 6 hours. Our girls where smoking the paperwork!
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