BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Manningjw]

Where are you getting those numbers from? I highly doubt them and would like to see a source. Birds producing north of 200 eggs were very rare until the 1910-1920's, even the Mediterranean breeds were topping out in the 240-250 range most the time. And all the old literature I've read has said that Those breeds were considered dual purpose with good meat qualities especially the Orpington.

The Australorp record is pretty well published. According to Wikipedia a team of 6 hens in 1922 laid an average of 309.5 eggs each over a year without modern lighting practices. Later that record was broken by a hen laying 364 out of 365 days.

The Orpington egg production numbers were from "a field guide to chickens." As much as SOP breeders criticize hatcheries, it seems anything not visible at a show is forgotten by the backyard breeder like egg production and even egg color sometimes. Then egg color is something both hatcheries and some sop breeders do not preserve.

 

[hellbender]

Just throwing something out there...I know my son is going to scream bloody murder in Farsi, Arabic and perhaps Urdu....but, even though I've had not one problem with frostbite during the last cold snap and certainly hope not to have that problem over the next week or so...I have 97.5% made up my mind to 'radically DUB' all of my cockerels that I plan to keep, [excluding show prospects] of course.

It's just too easy to do and the peace of mind is worth bunches. The last time I mentioned it to him, he brought up the argument about keeping them cool in summer but that ain't gonna fly. Even the hottest summer days here, the birds can haunt the apple orchards, grape arbors and black walnut groves and plenty of other cool places. Plus, I can't remember a night when a blanket didn't feel pretty good here at bed time. He'll adapt...

lol

 

[Happy Chooks]

I feed the whole flock spoiled milk and whey. Layers and meat birds. Only un-pasturized products though.

Mine get raw goats milk and whey as well.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Where are you getting those numbers from? I highly doubt them and would like to see a source. Birds producing north of 200 eggs were very rare until the 1910-1920's, even the Mediterranean breeds were topping out in the 240-250 range most the time. And all the old literature I've read has said that Those breeds were considered dual purpose with good meat qualities especially the Orpington.

Exactly the BA were developed from Orpintons and Langshns right. I was wondering myself where they extracted the egg laying capabilities(genetics) to get the BA's to lay the 300+ because anybody that has studied up on the Orpington and Langshan knows those don't exceed the 200+ mark generally, not even 200 annually. The 300+ egg layers we have today are from years of development and hybridization(4 and 6 way terminal crosses of strains not even breeds anymore) and feeding and management improvements. Those are the mid 20th century findings and studies. Just think of it this way if those BA were as productive as the propaganda (hoopla) says they were then yesterdays and todays brown egg market would have been ruled by them instead of the production hybrids and sex links that are holding down the fort in the current era. just a thought this morning LOL



Jeff

 

[ronott1]

Exactly the BA were developed from Orpintons and Langshns right. I was wondering myself where they extracted the egg laying capabilities(genetics) to get the BA's to lay the 300+ because anybody that has studied up on the Orpington and Langshan knows those don't exceed the 200+ mark generally, not even 200 annually. The 300+ egg layers we have today are from years of development and hybridization(4 and 6 way terminal crosses of strains not even breeds anymore) and feeding and management improvements. Those are the mid 20th century findings and studies. Just think of it this way if those BA were as productive as the propaganda (hoopla) says they were then yesterdays and todays brown egg market would have been ruled by them instead of the production hybrids and sex links that are holding down the fort in the current era. just a thought this morning LOL



Jeff

A couple of weeks ago Geoff posted on the Australorp thread that some sources say there was a bit of leghorn used to make Australorps.

 

[BGMatt]

The Australorp record is pretty well published. According to Wikipedia a team of 6 hens in 1922 laid an average of 309.5 eggs each over a year without modern lighting practices. Later that record was broken by a hen laying 364 out of 365 days.

The Orpington egg production numbers were from "a field guide to chickens." As much as SOP breeders criticize hatcheries, it seems anything not visible at a show is forgotten by the backyard breeder like egg production and even egg color sometimes. Then egg color is something both hatcheries and some sop breeders do not preserve.

Ah. So that is a record and is in no way typical of the breeds nor common. That's like comparing the average human to record setting Olympic athletes and saying we should all dead lift 900# while running the mile in under 4 minutes. I do agree that production is too often ignored but one should in no way expect those numbers from those breeds, especially if in anyway paying attention to the Standards (yes I know this isn't a SOP based thread), simply because the fact remains if a bird puts that much into egg production they have to give up the body size and muscle mass that makes them dual purpose (see the hatchery birds of today for further reference)

Exactly the BA were developed from Orpintons and Langshns right. I was wondering myself where they extracted the egg laying capabilities(genetics) to get the BA's to lay the 300+  because anybody that has studied up on the Orpington and Langshan knows those don't exceed the 200+ mark generally, not even 200 annually. The 300+ egg layers we have today are from years of development and hybridization(4 and 6 way terminal crosses of strains not even breeds anymore) and feeding and management improvements. Those are the mid 20th century findings and studies. Just think of it this way if those BA were as productive as the propaganda (hoopla) says they were then yesterdays and todays brown egg market would have been ruled by them instead of the production hybrids and sex links that are holding down the fort in the current era. just a thought this morning LOL



Jeff

I agree with most of this post, and have not raised Orpingtons but have raised Langshans extensively. 200-225 eggs a year is not out of the question, while adhering to the Standard even. It does take paying attention but it can be done. I used the techniques taught to us in FFA poultry judging (which I later learned were the same as the Hogan Method from "The Call of the Hen") to select my best laying birds year after year. I went through some of my old records and the most eggs I recorded from a breeding trio in a year was 460 (1998-1999), I don't trapnest but still, there was only 2 pullets in that pen. One of the two was a multiple time champion asiatic and champion large fowl.

You could probably push then further, and probably push their growth and PoL earlier than I had them too (PoL 6 - 6.5 months) but it is my opinion that you'd start losing breed characteristics at that point.

Edit: the Langshans I have right now after my hiatus from poultry are on pace for about 150 eggs a year, will keep records and watch progress, and of course be selecting for better production as time goes on. 180-200 is a good goal I think.

 

[hcammack]

Just throwing something out there...I know my son is going to scream bloody murder in Farsi, Arabic and perhaps Urdu....but, even though I've had not one problem with frostbite during the last cold snap and certainly hope not to have that problem over the next week or so...I have 97.5% made up my mind to 'radically DUB' all of my cockerels that I plan to keep, [excluding show prospects] of course.

It's just too easy to do and the peace of mind is worth bunches. The last time I mentioned it to him, he brought up the argument about keeping them cool in summer but that ain't gonna fly. Even the hottest summer days here, the birds can haunt the apple orchards, grape arbors and black walnut groves and plenty of other cool places. Plus, I can't remember a night when a blanket didn't feel pretty good here at bed time. He'll adapt...

lol

Hmm interesting thought. I have straight combed birds up in Vermont and in my experience as long as the coop is dry and well ventilated I don't have problems with frostbite. So not considering dubbing my birds. Just think it looks weird to for a bird thats standard calls for a straight comb to not have one. If it aint broke don't fix it right? It was -15 last night here and has hit as low as -35 this winter.

 

[Manningjw]

Exactly the BA were developed from Orpintons and Langshns right. I was wondering myself where they extracted the egg laying capabilities(genetics) to get the BA's to lay the 300+ because anybody that has studied up on the Orpington and Langshan knows those don't exceed the 200+ mark generally, not even 200 annually. The 300+ egg layers we have today are from years of development and hybridization(4 and 6 way terminal crosses of strains not even breeds anymore) and feeding and management improvements. Those are the mid 20th century findings and studies. Just think of it this way if those BA were as productive as the propaganda (hoopla) says they were then yesterdays and todays brown egg market would have been ruled by them instead of the production hybrids and sex links that are holding down the fort in the current era. just a thought this morning LOL



Jeff

The exact crosses are not entirely known but rumored to include Rhode Island Reds as well as White Leghorns (supposedly) and several other breeds. The egg production came from selective breeding. Simply being a Mediterranean breed does not mean you will have high production value, select breeding programs do. There is a big difference between a White Leghorn and a Brown leghorn in terms of eggs per year despite being the same 'breed' but different color and selection process.

The point is the egg production value of the Australorp isn't what it used to be because other breeds have filled the role of commercial egg layers eating less feed per egg. No longer used for commercial egg laying, the selection specific to that purpose isn't as strong instead focusing on the physical traits. I doubt you will find BAs with the production value they had in the 1920-1930 period.

 

[Manningjw]

Ah. So that is a record and is in no way typical of the breeds nor common. That's like comparing the average human to record setting Olympic athletes and saying we should all dead lift 900# while running the mile in under 4 minutes. I do agree that production is too often ignored but one should in no way expect those numbers from those breeds, especially if in anyway paying attention to the Standards (yes I know this isn't a SOP based thread), simply because the fact remains if a bird puts that much into egg production they have to give up the body size and muscle mass that makes them dual purpose (see the hatchery birds of today for further reference)

I don't see it being the same as comparing an Olympic athlete to a human average. Humans have a lot of variance in body type (as do Chickens, but not specific breeds) and train for an entire lifetime to be an Olympic athlete. I think it would be similar to comparing say the average height of a human on a specific island nation. While there are exceptions to the rule, the average production for 6 separate hens involved in the breeding program was well over 300 eggs a year. They were specifically bred for that purpose so it isn't surprising that they achieved such production. The fact that the records were set before lighting programs and without modern feed mixes I think further separates these averages from being compared to an Olympic Athlete record. Taking the record breed and putting them in a modern production environment...

 

[hellbender]

Hmm interesting thought. I have straight combed birds up in Vermont and in my experience as long as the coop is dry and well ventilated I don't have problems with frostbite. So not considering dubbing my birds. Just think it looks weird to for a bird thats standard calls for a straight comb to not have one. If it aint broke don't fix it right? It was -15 last night here and has hit as low as -35 this winter.

Thank you for your reply. It's only fair that I tell you that my post was a trap...I have been suspecting that my son has been monitoring these threads while telling me he doesn't have time...

He seems to have found a little bit of time.

About half an hour after I posted...I got a fierce phome call...My ears are still burning! Took me a while to convince him of what I now post.

I did consider it once..for about 30 seconds.