BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[3riverschick]

Racehorse Breeding Theories (e-book)
http://www.horseinfo.com/cart/breedingtheories.html
Tesio In His Own Words (e-book)
http://www.horseinfo.com/cart/tesio.html
Hi Nanakat,

Here's an idea I have had rumbling around in my head the last 24 hours. Try this one on for size. We know that transgenerational epigenetics can inherit to at least the F2 generation ( grandkids). We see this in humans and turkeys. Are you familiar with Tesio the great racehorse breeder? Years ago I bought his reprinted book , "Tesio in His Own Words". A fascinating tome on how he bred his superlative racehorses. Here's where it gets interesting. Tesio was a polymath. He tried for years to come up with an equation which would result in the perfect balance between speed and form. He failed and finally went to see a clergyman. The clergyman told him that it couldn't be done and the road to such perfect balance lay in complementary breedings. In balancing attributes until balance was achieved. ( as a side note, the most perfect racehorse ever bred was Eclipse. So perfect in form and symmetry that he never "fought against himself" when racing and that's why he was such a winning horse) but I digress.
Anyway, Tesio took the advice to heart. He created a superlative stud farm and bred the finest racehorses ever. No one could figure out how he did it. Nor could they replicate his results. When his book was found and reprinted Tesio revealed he used the "nervous energy" of young studs.as older studs had worked for years and their nervous energy was depleted. Ok, that sounds kinda New Age unless we take in some other ideas.
Ok, stay with me here.... In Ohio about the same time, there was another renowned polymath who was a Prof. at Ohio State University. .He bred horses and collie dogs. Prof. Bohannon decided to trace the heritage of the top winning collie dog ( rough [and possibly] smooth coated) studs of his day and before. He made a great chart listing the studs and the ages at which they begat their winning get. ( I have the chart, being a very serious student of the collie breed) The numbers tied in with Tesio's research in that the most successful get from these collie studs were begat when the dogs were younger.
Now let's put these thoughts aside for a moment and go back to the transgenerational epigenetics and linebreeding. If we were closely linebreeding our birds and we end up seeing a transgenerational epigenetics trait. Could we actually be linebreeding that trait if we got no further than F2 generation at any time? ( as an aside Tesio did an exhaustive study of winning male stakes racehorses and their get. He found that the sire would win; the son would win; the grandson would win... but the winning never, ever passed on to the F3 generation. Not once. I sometimes wonder ( dog breeding having arisen somewhat from the horsey crowd..if this is where we got the old adage "2 generations and out" , meaning inbreed 2 generations and then go out for new blood).
What I do not know is the vitality of the epigenetic "tags" we talked about earlier. Do they fade in vitality or ability to accept epigenetic commands? If they do ..and... the best time for one of the tags to accept a epigenetic "command" would be when the animal was younger... hang in here with me.... I wonder if Tesio in his complementary breedings stumbled on transgenerational epigenetic traits. Could they be the "nervous energy" he spoke of? And if so ,and if the tags do lose vitality later in life, could that be why the collies and horse studs begat their greatest get when they were young.? Could Tesio have actually be linebreeding transgenerational epigenetic traits? Was that why others couldn't replicate his results? Because they brought in (or just plain used) foreign blood and the traits went past the F2 generation or were strain crossed and didn't manifest any more .
It's an intriguing line of thought, However...I need to talk to some experts about this and learn more about the epigenetic tags. Until I can understand how they work, there's not much further to go with this. Racehorse breeding is such a fine art, it has always intrigued me why folk couldn't replicate Tesio's success.
Another explanation might be...we know (as animals age) microsatellites in their genome change. Maybe this was the "nervous" energy Tesio spoke about. The younger the stud, the less time it's genome has to "change".
Best,
Karen
nutrigenomics epigenetics

 

[NanaKat]

 
What does a pressure cooked chicken taste like? (Please don't say it tastes like chicken )  By that, I mean....... does it taste like chicken that's in chicken soup? Or more like a roast?
Did you brine first?
@Beer can
please share all the details! I have a pressure cooker, it's only been used to cook beans........ and even then they turn  out tough....... :-(

Taste like chicken  
Just cooks 10x faster with way less energy. Picture a chicken in a crock pot, or a chicken baked with some water in the pan covered in aluminum foil. Would take a long long time longer but about the same. No need to brine or rest, meat will literally pull off the bones leaving the bones squeaky clean.
What kind of beans were you cooking? Dry beans can't be pressure cooked, still need soak time. I've canned green dilly beans before from beans that should have been picked earlier, turned out tough and stringy, yuck. Done right I usually just cold pack dilly beans.

We pressure cook dry beans all the time. I put a ham bone or pork jowl, onion, salt and pepper with 1 pound bag of sorted rinsed dry beans in my 20 cup pressure cooker. I add enough water to bring the level within 2 inches of the top and use 10 pound pressure for 45 minutes. Brown beans, white, lima all work great.

 

[NanaKat]

Hi Nanakat,

 Here's an idea I have had rumbling around in my head the last 24 hours. Try this one on for size. We know that transgenerational epigenetics can inherit to at least the F2 generation ( grandkids). We see this in humans and turkeys. Are you familiar with Tesio the great racehorse breeder? Years ago I bought his reprinted book , "Tesio in His Own Words". A fascinating tome on how he bred his superlative racehorses. Here's where it gets interesting. Tesio was a polymath. He tried for years to come up with an equation which would result in the perfect balance between speed and  form.  He failed and finally went to see a clergyman. The clergyman told him that it couldn't be done and the road to such perfect balance lay in complementary breedings. In balancing attributes until balance was achieved. ( as a side note, the most perfect racehorse ever bred was Eclipse. So perfect in form and symmetry that he never "fought against himself" when racing and that's why he was such a winning horse) but I digress.
  Anyway, Tesio took the advice to heart. He created a superlative stud farm and bred the finest racehorses ever. No one could figure out how he did it. Nor could they replicate his results. When his book was found and reprinted Tesio revealed he used the "nervous energy" of young studs.as older studs had worked for years and their nervous energy was depleted. Ok, that sounds kinda New Age unless we take in some other ideas.
   Ok, stay with me here.... In Ohio about the same time, there was another renowned polymath who was a Prof. at Ohio State University. .He bred horses and collie dogs. Prof. Bohannon decided to trace the heritage of the top winning collie dog ( rough [and possibly] smooth coated)  studs of his day and before. He made a great chart listing the studs and the ages at which they begat their winning get. ( I have the chart, being  a very serious student of the collie breed) The numbers tied in with Tesio's research in that the most successful get from these collie studs were begat  when the dogs were younger.
 Now let's put these thoughts aside for a moment and go back to the transgenerational epigenetics and linebreeding.    If we were closely linebreeding our birds and we end up seeing a transgenerational epigenetics trait. Could we actually be linebreeding that trait if we got no further than F2 generation at any time? ( as an aside Tesio did an exhaustive study of winning male stakes racehorses and their get. He found that the sire would win; the son would win; the grandson would win... but the winning never, ever passed on to the F3 generation. Not once. I sometimes wonder ( dog breeding having arisen somewhat from the horsey crowd..if this is where we got the old adage "2 generations and out" , meaning inbreed 2 generations and then go out for new blood).
  What I do not know is the vitality of the epigenetic "tags" we talked about earlier. Do they fade in vitality or ability to accept epigenetic commands? If they do ..and... the best time for one of the tags to accept a epigenetic "command" would be when the animal was younger... hang in here with me.... I wonder if Tesio in his complementary breedings stumbled on transgenerational epigenetic traits. Could they be the "nervous energy" he spoke of? And if so ,and if the tags do lose vitality later in life, could that be why the collies and horse studs begat their greatest get when they were young.? Could Tesio have actually be linebreeding transgenerational epigenetic traits? Was that why others couldn't replicate his results? Because they brought in (or just plain used) foreign blood and the traits went past the F2 generation or were strain crossed and didn't manifest any more .
  It's an intriguing line of thought, However...I need to talk to some experts about this and learn more about the epigenetic tags. Until I can understand how they work, there's not much further to go with this. Racehorse breeding is such a fine art, it has always intrigued me why folk couldn't replicate Tesio's success.
 Another explanation might be...we know (as animals age) microsatellites in their genome change. Maybe this was the "nervous" energy Tesio spoke about.  The younger the stud, the less time it's genome has to "change".
 Best,
 Karen

Lots to chew on!
Haven't read Tesio. Need to look up his book. We operate some of the same principle in our Angus herd.
I like using cocks beginning at 15 - 18 months. By three years of age, the "nervous energy" comes from the younger hens not the senior cock.
My best chicks come from breeding father to daughters, son to mother and her full blood sisters, and
half siblings sharing the same father.
When selecting hens for a rooster, I select complementary characteristics...comb, wing color, down color, top color...strength + weakness= middle road with top poppers.

In addition, in ovo article, I've been putting food and water in my hatcher for 2 years. I put several drops of Poultry Nutridrench in the water. I also use Nutridrench in an eye dropper for each chick as it goes into the brooder. Chicks have been more active, better eaters, tolerate lower temps and take to greens quicker in the brooder.
Gastrointestinal tract growth in chicks and calves are very similar in the adjustment to feed conversion and immunity. Calves make transition to immunity with colostrum and digestion of first grass in the rumen. A calf that is slow adjusting or a pulled calf takes two weeks to catch up with the hit the ground running calf.

 

[3riverschick]

Lots to chew on!
Haven't read Tesio. Need to look up his book. We operate some of the same principle in our Angus herd.
I like using cocks beginning at 15 - 18 months. By three years of age, the "nervous energy" comes from the younger hens not the senior cock.
My best chicks come from breeding father to daughters, son to mother and her full blood sisters, and
half siblings sharing the same father.
When selecting hens for a rooster, I select complementary characteristics...comb, wing color, down color, top color...strength + weakness= middle road with top poppers.

In addition, in ovo article, I've been putting food and water in my hatcher for 2 years. I put several drops of Poultry Nutridrench in the water. I also use Nutridrench in an eye dropper for each chick as it goes into the brooder. Chicks have been more active, better eaters, tolerate lower temps and take to greens quicker in the brooder.
Gastrointestinal tract growth in chicks and calves are very similar in the adjustment to feed conversion and immunity. Calves make transition to immunity with colostrum and digestion of first grass in the rumen. A calf that is slow adjusting or a pulled calf takes two weeks to catch up with the hit the ground running calf.

Hi NanaKat,
It's a fascinating book. I wish now I hadn't sold my copy when I sold my dog book collection. Oh well.
Real interesting breeding advice. What's a top popper? I love studying breeding systems. It's so intriguing seeing how people have developed ways to concentrate virtue in gene pools. I am going to remember your post about the best breedings, thank you. It's been almost 20 years since I started studying the neonatal gastrointestinal tract. Absolutely fascinated by it. By the ramifications of simple enhancements or neglects of it's proper functioning. That's real interesting about the calves and chicks. Those 1st 24 hours are just so critical. It's so sad so much misinformation is out there on how to treat poultry neonates. I am going to try female family inbreeding with the Chanteclers and see what falls out of the tree. I like the idea of concentrating virtue from one superior female on both sides of the pedigree.
There's a real neat book out there called "Racehorse Breeding Theories". It discusses the many ways virtue can be enhanced in a pedigree. I once saw a dog pedigree for a single breeding what had 4 different systems of virtue consolidation in it. Unfortunately the litter was never bred but I always wondered what the pups would have been like. It had three of the methods from the "Theories" book in that pedigree.
Best,
Karen nutrigenomics epigenetics

 

[QuoVadis]

I suppose most folks who have bantam breeds raise them for show.
But the variety of bantams I have are great egg layers...2 Bantam eggs = 1 med or large egg from a LF hen. And they will lay thru the winter here.
Granted the meat is not as large a portion, but breasts and leg quarters can make a meal for two with broth for gravy from the rest of the carcass.
The hens make great broody mothers and protect their chicks with a passion. They will raise large fowl chicks if they get them when their clutch hatches. ...a comical picture.
The roosters are diligent guardians yet people tolerant.
AND they eat less feed than the same number of big birds.
My biggest Bantams are the Delaware Bantam...nice chunky birds.

I have Columbian Wyandotte and Cochin with a variety of other large fowl...each has a purpose in the flock.

I have also found bantams to be very under utilized as egg layers. What kinds do you find the be the best egg layers?

 

[NanaKat]

I suppose most folks who have bantam breeds raise them for show.

But the variety of bantams I have are great egg layers...2 Bantam eggs = 1 med or large egg from a LF hen. And they will lay thru the winter here.

Granted the meat is not as large a portion, but breasts and leg quarters can make a meal for two with broth for gravy from the rest of the carcass.

The hens make great broody mothers and protect their chicks with a passion. They will raise large fowl chicks if they get them when their clutch hatches. ...a comical picture.

The roosters are diligent guardians yet people tolerant.

AND they eat less feed than the same number of big birds.

My biggest Bantams are the Delaware Bantam...nice chunky birds.


I have Columbian Wyandotte and Cochin with a variety of other large fowl...each has a purpose in the flock.

I have also found bantams to be very under utilized as egg layers. What kinds do you find the be the best egg layers?

My Rosecomb, Old English and Delaware Bantams are consistent layers. The Serama lay until 6 eggs and then go broody...must be diligent with daily egg collection.

 

[NanaKat]

Lots to chew on!

Haven't read Tesio. Need to look up his book. We operate some of the same principle in our Angus herd.

I like using cocks beginning at 15 - 18 months. By three years of age, the "nervous energy" comes from the younger hens not the senior cock.

My best chicks come from breeding father to daughters, son to mother and her full blood sisters, and

half siblings sharing the same father.

When selecting hens for a rooster, I select complementary characteristics...comb, wing color, down color, top color...strength + weakness= middle road with top poppers.


In addition, in ovo article, I've been putting food and water in my hatcher for 2 years. I put several drops of Poultry Nutridrench in the water. I also use Nutridrench in an eye dropper for each chick as it goes into the brooder. Chicks have been more active, better eaters, tolerate lower temps and take to greens quicker in the brooder.

Gastrointestinal tract growth in chicks and calves are very similar in the adjustment to feed conversion and immunity. Calves make transition to immunity with colostrum and digestion of first grass in the rumen. A calf that is slow adjusting or a pulled calf takes two weeks to catch up with the hit the ground running calf.

Hi NanaKat,
 It's a fascinating book. I wish now I hadn't sold my copy when I sold my dog book collection. Oh well.
Real interesting breeding advice. What's a top popper?  I love studying breeding systems. It's so intriguing seeing how people have developed ways to concentrate virtue in gene pools. I am going to remember your post about the best breedings, thank you. It's been almost 20 years since I started studying the neonatal gastrointestinal tract. Absolutely fascinated by it. By the ramifications of simple enhancements or neglects of it's proper functioning. That's real interesting about the calves and chicks.  Those 1st 24 hours are just so critical. It's so sad so much misinformation is out there on how to treat poultry neonates.  I am going to try female family inbreeding with the Chanteclers and see what falls out of the tree. I like the idea of concentrating virtue from one superior female on both sides of the pedigree. 
  There's a real neat book out there called "Racehorse Breeding Theories". It discusses the many ways virtue can be enhanced in a pedigree. I once saw a dog pedigree for a single breeding what had 4 different systems of virtue consolidation in it. Unfortunately the litter was never bred but I always wondered what the pups would have been like.  It had three of the methods from the "Theories" book in that pedigree.
 Best,
 Karen nutrigenomics epigenetics

My term top poppers are those chicks that mature into birds that closely align with SOP....they make you catch your breath and stand still to watch them in motion.
Bob Blosl advised us to kick the can down the middle of the road; others advise we do that by selecting for balance in breeding characteristics. By careful selection and pairing, the genetics nic and those few beauties pop to the top.

In our herd there will be standout heifers that we all comment about as we check the herd....nice top line, great head, broad rear, good muscle, good-looking, nice disposition...from 4 months of age and still getting those comments at 8 months....she is a keeper.

Knowing that type is more influenced by the hen, with color from the male, it will be interesting to follow your Chantecler female family in-breeding plan.

 

[KittieChick]

I have just started a flock of black Javas. They are lovely, large birds, very slow growers. I'm wondering if growth rate for the table could be improved by adding a dark Cornish to the bloodline.

 

[Turk Raphael]

I have just started a flock of black Javas. They are lovely, large birds, very slow growers. I'm wondering if growth rate for the table could be improved by adding a dark Cornish to the bloodline.

Dark Cornish are very slow growers too. It might make a very nice F1 bird for slaughter but I wouldn't be in a hurry for them.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I have just started a flock of black Javas. They are lovely, large birds, very slow growers. I'm wondering if growth rate for the table could be improved by adding a dark Cornish to the bloodline.

I crossed a Buckeye rooster to Dark Cornish hens, and the cross chicks have left both pure breed chicks in the dust- much faster growing. It might be worth a try.
I wanted Black Javas too, but they seem to be extinct this side of the border. Unfortunately it seems Buckeyes are headed that way too.
Take good care of your Javas, they seem to be quite rare. Try the cross to see what happens, but keep a pure line of Javas going!
Would Java Capons might be an idea ? - lots of information about that in this thread.