BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[southernmomma]

Back before I knew about toe punches etc. I learned that with chicks that they outgrew most things too fast. You really have to stay on top of it. The temporary marks are just that. Temporary.

Really it is best to take the time and purchase a toe punch and learn the process. Just monitor and re punch as necessary. Or do as one poster does and cuts the webs. I realize some might have some aversion to doing these things, but neither does method does the birds no real harm. The identification is permanent. When they are ready, put some colored bands on them.

What I have an aversion to is losing their identification, or leg bands cutting into their legs.

This would seem the simplest, permanent solution; costing nothing more than the few dollars for sharp manicure scissors.

M

 

[bmvf]

As far as you mentioning "SOP breeders and not dual purpose breeders" - I am wondering why you seem to have put this into separate categories. SOP breeders are people who breed to the Standard of Perfection. Dual purpose breeders...well there really isn't such a separate category as "dual purpose breeders" - unless you're referring to people who only breed for production of eggs and meat, paying no attention to whether or not their birds continue to have the physical characteristics of the breed as listed in the SOP. The term dual purpose means birds that are used for both meat and eggs which is different than breeding for production. Honestly, I don't know how you can really separate the two - breeding for production and breeding for the SOP. The SOP is about more than just the color of a chicken but I think people who don't bother to get the SOP book and read ALL of it, may get the impression that the SOP as being about color and not about the whole package. But in reality, the SOP is about the entire chicken package, although I know of some "SOP" breeders who are more interested in color than anything else, because "pretty chickens" are what sells since the vast majority of chicken owners are more interested in the novelty of chicken eye candy that gives them a few eggs, and these particular breeders are all about making a buck and a name for themselves.

I know nothing of the SOP except for what I've heard about on this site. What I meant by separating SOP and dual purpose ( I should have said meat production) was that the birds would be too large for the SOP and not what they are intended to be. On the other hand a meat bird would be better growing faster.

 

[bnjrob]

TO: bmvf......You can take anything you read in any of the Storey Guide Books with several grains of salt......The factual errors are numerous and much of the advice is simply wrong or silly...

LOl, well I wasn't going to say anything but after finding out a few things about the author of the Storey's chicken book...well, it's a place to start to try to figure out what information you're looking for but definitely take it with maybe a whole salt shaker full of salt.

 

[bnjrob]

I know nothing of the SOP except for what I've heard about on this site. What I meant by separating SOP and dual purpose ( I should have said meat production) was that the birds would be too large for the SOP and not what they are intended to be. On the other hand a meat bird would be better growing faster.

I'm confused, what meat birds do you think would be too large for the SOP and end up not being what they are intended to be?

Birds that are recognized by the APA and have an SOP to meet, are of varying sizes depending on their original use and how they were made. My dual purpose Javas are supposed to be 9.5 lbs for a cock and 7.5 lbs for a hen, according to the SOP. That's not a small chicken although there are some other breeds that are supposed to be even larger.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of exactly what the SOP is all about and the difference between standard bred birds that are meat/dual-purpose birds and the commercial meat mutt birds that are meant to be slaughtered within a few weeks???? Or maybe I'm just not understanding what exactly your thought is...

 

[gjensen]

Quote:
I think that it is.

 

[gjensen]

I know nothing of the SOP except for what I've heard about on this site. What I meant by separating SOP and dual purpose ( I should have said meat production) was that the birds would be too large for the SOP and not what they are intended to be. On the other hand a meat bird would be better growing faster.

"Standard" bred birds are often too large according to the Standard. There is a preference for the larger birds. That is common in some breeds.

The two breeds that you have showed the most interest in are medium large birds. They are not supposed to be too large and their advantage being reaching a 1940s-50s processing weight before their competitors, and not the final size that they get. In fact if they become too large, they lose some of that "competitive" advantage over their counterparts.

The Standard weight for the Delaware and New Hampshire is 8.5 lbs. Ideally you want your cock birds to be between a little over in the 9lb. range. Size is easy too lose and hard to get back, so you want to err on the heavier side. Not to any extreme though.
By comparison a Plymouth Rock's Standard weight is 9.5lbs and are commonly in the 11lb range.

Neither the New Hampshire nor the Delaware were meant to be "roasters". They were the start of the broiler industry where modern concepts of speed and efficiency was getting established. They were dressed out early as fryers, but now how we see fryers today. What was wanted was a meaty carcass at a young age that was at the peak of their growth curve. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 wks.

Over time their was some strains of New Hampshire that were developed to be larger, but the NH Cornish crosses were taking over, and eventually specialized strains of Cornish x White Rock. The New Hampshire accepted into the Standard are dual purpose birds. Back then there was high performing egg laying strains, and meat strains that was the breed New Hampshire. You cannot go too far to one side and not lose some of the other. The Standard New Hampshire is the bird in the middle.

Now, if you want to develop a specialized meat strain of New Hampshire, you can do that. It would not be the NH accepted into the Standard, but does not mean you cannot do it. It will require an outcross. You can still find New Hampshire influence in the colored broiler strains.

 

[gjensen]

Quote:
I do not think it is a bad book for beginners as long as all of it is not taken as the gospel. There are not a lot of books of it's type that are any better.

 

[seventreesfarm]

Harvey Ussery's book is interesting. http://www.themodernhomestead.us/article/poultry.html

He's an APPPA member and is very helpful in the members only email group. http://www.apppa.org/ They are getting ready to do a subgroup for smaller/hobby/backyard flocks, but the more commercial oriented stuff is very helpful too.

 

[gjensen]

I agree that his book is interesting, but I would put into the same category.

I think there is room for a better book to introduce new people. I like the ground Storey's book covers, and it stays away from philosophical ideals (mostly). It just gets some facts wrong. A lot of books do. It isn't that the entire book is necessarily bad.

I have learned to be skeptical about everything I read. Online or on paper. I consider it and decide for myself.

 

[chickadoodles]

Thought on marking chicks... what about bingo dobbers? different colors. I did use a swipe of red nail polish on one of my turkey toms I called Ace because I did not want to sale him by mistake.