BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[ronott1]

At what age can a cock start mating? Are there any signs that he is ready other than just throwing him in the pen with the layers?

It usually takes just a bit longer than the pullets reach Point of Lay.

Look for the same signs--combs get big and redder in most breeds. They will also start courting behavior like wing dancing and dropping food for the girls.

 

[seventreesfarm]

It's all fine.

We are talking about production on this thread. If you want the best production and you are a small farmer, maybe selling to a farmers market, keep the fertility loss in mind when breeding. If you are a breeder working on SOP and other goals then you will want to use your best for longer.

It all depends on your goals. Information was given. Assumptions about what the mean is up to the reader.

I think for me, keeping my hens longer, and trading out roosters sooner might be better. I'm on a few generations of birds now, and I know the roos I started with aren't the best. Now that I have some better pullets to work with, finding roos that more closely match my ideal is a good way to go.
I'm pretty much done hatching homegrown eggs after the current batch, and looking around for some quality Marans and Ams to hatch next. By spring they should be mature and I should be able to pick out any worth keeping to cross with my 'upgraded' hens.

But the hens I have that are contributing positive traits to their offspring, I will keep longer so I can get some of their genes going with the new roos.

I was following my flock around the yard today with the camera. I'll have to crunch though the pics tonight to see if there are any that show what I'm looking for in my birds. They're pretty good at dodging the camera though...

 

[gjensen]

It's all fine.

We are talking about production on this thread. If you want the best production and you are a small farmer, maybe selling to a farmers market, keep the fertility loss in mind when breeding. If you are a breeder working on SOP and other goals then you will want to use your best for longer.

It all depends on your goals. Information was given. Assumptions about what the mean is up to the reader.

My intent was not to be critical of your post, but to offer an alternative. To imply that a cock bird could not have good fertility after one year is not true. It just isn't. I would hate to think that everyone will start killing their good birds after one year, because they do not think they can no longer produce fertile eggs. You cannot get anywhere good like that.

There are people that visit these threads that would think you cannot use or should not use a male after one year.

My NH cock bird that I was referring to at three years still has 85-90% fertile eggs, and they hatch fine. Where does he fit into your statement?

It is true that after a few years some will start having trouble with a male. Some will not. They are not all the same. You pick these things out with experience. It is up to the breeder to decide at what point an individual birds is not worth moving on with.
It is also true that they will be most fertile as fully developed cockerels. They do lose fertility as they age. You just added the question that you wondered how many people's hatching issues were from using males after older than one year.

I do not know were the SOP comment comes from. I suppose that is a curve ball. Tis is not an SOP vs. Non SOP. Anyone that has paid any attention to what I write knows that I breed to the Standard, but my goal is to have productive Standard bred birds. I see the birds as livestock, and manage them accordingly. Regardless, the breeding concepts are the same. They have been the same since before our time.

This thread is titled "Breeding for Production", and to me an important production characteristic and breeding goal is longevity. It is not for some. I get that. I just am not interested in breeding birds that are useless or disposable after one year. There is millions of them around the world already. I cannot rationalize the appeal in that. What sense would that make?

So Ron, I did not mean any disrespect. I just disagreed, and explained why I did. These exchanges is where the information comes from and the point behind having these threads. We will not always agree.

 

[gjensen]

At what age can a cock start mating? Are there any signs that he is ready other than just throwing him in the pen with the layers?

They will let you know. When you think he is ready, put him in. When you see him topping the pullets, he is doing what he is supposed to.

 

[Arielle]

I appreciate these conversations-- I know it can be difficult at moments, but I appreciate all the input to discuss various thoughts.

 

[ronott1]

My intent was not to be critical of your post, but to offer an alternative. To imply that a cock bird could not have good fertility after one year is not true. It just isn't. I would hate to think that everyone will start killing their good birds after one year, because they do not think they can no longer produce fertile eggs. You cannot get anywhere good like that.

There are people that visit these threads that would think you cannot use or should not use a male after one year.

My NH cock bird that I was referring to at three years still has 85-90% fertile eggs, and they hatch fine. Where does he fit into your statement?

It is true that after a few years some will start having trouble with a male. Some will not. They are not all the same. You pick these things out with experience. It is up to the breeder to decide at what point an individual birds is not worth moving on with.
It is also true that they will be most fertile as fully developed cockerels. They do lose fertility as they age. You just added the question that you wondered how many people's hatching issues were from using males after older than one year.

I do not know were the SOP comment comes from. I suppose that is a curve ball. Tis is not an SOP vs. Non SOP. Anyone that has paid any attention to what I write knows that I breed to the Standard, but my goal is to have productive Standard bred birds. I see the birds as livestock, and manage them accordingly. Regardless, the breeding concepts are the same. They have been the same since before our time.

This thread is titled "Breeding for Production", and to me an important production characteristic and breeding goal is longevity. It is not for some. I get that. I just am not interested in breeding birds that are useless or disposable after one year. There is millions of them around the world already. I cannot rationalize the appeal in that. What sense would that make?

So Ron, I did not mean any disrespect. I just disagreed, and explained why I did. These exchanges is where the information comes from and the point behind having these threads. We will not always agree.

That's fine. I was just injecting a bit of research on the subject. There have been studies but likely they were using Commercial stock. I do not know what the differences are but there may be some that they did not check for.

 

[Turk Raphael]

One thing to remember is that Cock birds lose their fertility quickly after the first year. I wonder how many with low fertility are using two year old Males for breeding?

I believe I read were RON L. uses males and hens up to and even past four years of age. That being said, I think they have been breeding for longevity for decades !!!!!! I'm sure that can make a big difference.

ETA...He uses hens up to 4 years and males for as long as 6 years but not very often!

 

[gjensen]

I believe, with no proof, that the American Games would do well the longest. Good ones have vigor to spare.Then the lighter Mediterranean breeds that are not too closely bred. Finally the heavy breeds. All with exceptions.

I also believe that where they start matters.

I have heard older breeders speak of hatching from older males later in the spring. This has made sense to me because I have had better rates later in the spring from birds that were not famous for their rates of fertility. Birds that I chose not to continue with.

Again, the old adage with older birds is having youth on one side. In other words, a cockerel on an old hen etc.

 

[Arielle]

I believe, with no proof, that the American Games would do well the longest. Good ones have vigor to spare.Then the lighter Mediterranean breeds that are not too closely bred. Finally the heavy breeds. All with exceptions.

I also believe that where they start matters.

I have heard older breeders speak of hatching from older males later in the spring. This has made sense to me because I have had better rates later in the spring from birds that were not famous for their rates of fertility. Birds that I chose not to continue with.

Again, the old adage with older birds is having youth on one side. In other words, a cockerel on an old hen etc.

George, can you expand on this.

As for old to young-- we do it i n horses--of course sperm counts and quality are evaluated and stallions cannot proceed tothe breeding shed with out meeting a minimal requirement. Clearly fertility is heritable.

 

[southernmomma]

Quote:
Perhaps frequency increases fertility....so the old guys need a little longer to get their fertility up?