BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[call ducks]

Form's relation to function, and vice versa, varies from breed to breed like it would in horses. To get it, is to get to know a breed and know why it should be what it is.

Indeed. And get a good mentor! When one is fully antiquated with a breed they can look at their flock running around and be able to pick out breeders and culls.

Just the other week I had some one contact me for a Light Sussex cock I asked where they got their stock from they had U of Alberta strain pullets (think leghorn size). Once they got here I was able to pick out a cock for them in about three minutes. I knew what would pair good, because I have seen a pairing like that. It also came with an intimate knowledge of the breed.


Ohh gjensen don't worry I get you completely - I am also bad at explaining.

 

[southernmomma]

These could be/should be good meat birds. I will cut myself short of saying that they are. They do have potential.

I keep saying how they grow out matters as much as anything. These feather out fast, and mature reasonably fast. They are not fast to fill out. Jeremy shared some Reese/Bonham birds with me. They filled out how a NH should. I kept a single male and he was used on a couple of my hens. I have some 3/4 offspring here. Time will tell if I use them, go another generation, or kill them all. I hope to be able to use them. There is two things that I wanted them for.

Ah yes, I do like this bird. It just says chicken to me with its color and pretty black tail. I've skipped back and forth over the two main threads, trying to make heads or tails of German, American, light, dark, meat line, egg line,broodiness, fertility, hatching probs, etc..........but ultimately I like this bird and its historical use. It's also noteworthy that our new geographic location would put me in the middle of some folks involved with the breed. I do wonder, with all of the crossing of lines (or is it strains?), why there isn't a compilation of effort to refer to them simply as NH versus GNH/ANH. I found some impressive numbers in regards to feathering and maturation but not much about the fleshing out or broodiness~ two areas that interest me. They do seem like a "fast" bird though compared to other standard bred but really, a rhythm of spring hatch and fall butcher is what I'm after and that's why I'm after a standard bred bird to begin with. That's kind of unclear~ I guess, to me, there isn't anything that would stop me from investing in a variety that was table ready in 22 weeks versus 25 weeks if the other components were in place. Example: bird A is 5lbs, lays 3 eggs/wk, foraging, manageable, etc at 22 weeks; Bird B is 5lbs, lays 3 eggs/wk, foraging, easily managed, etc at 26 weeks with the addition of (the general acknowledgement of) rampant broodiness in the spring. Bird B is where I'm going all day long. I know there are traits that can be developed and there are work arounds for broody hens but I think it's important to consider the canvas on which I can work and it's limitations.
Anyhow, thanks for the suggestion, it's a great one

M

 

[hellbender]

Indeed. And get a good mentor! When one is fully antiquated with a breed they can look at their flock running around and be able to pick out breeders and culls.

Just the other week I had some one contact me for a Light Sussex cock I asked where they got their stock from they had U of Alberta strain pullets (think leghorn size). Once they got here I was able to pick out a cock for them in about three minutes. I knew what would pair good, because I have seen a pairing like that. It also came with an intimate knowledge of the breed.


Ohh gjensen don't worry I get you completely - I am also bad at explaining.

''Antiquated''....Sir, some of us resemble that and do not know which end of the bird lays eggs and which end crows!

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Ahemmm - gotta love spell check... LOL good humor - I am not even sure what I meant there now everyone make something up!

 

[hellbender]

Ahemmm - gotta love spell check... LOL good humor - I am not even sure what I meant there now everyone make something up!

How 'bout 'fully acquainted' that sounds good!!!

 

[call ducks]

Quote: Sounds fine Now time to go see if that sussex is off the nest... Some well let me get the eggs while on the nest... Others try to eat the flesh right off me...

 

[gjensen]

Ah yes, I do like this bird. It just says chicken to me with its color and pretty black tail. I've skipped back and forth over the two main threads, trying to make heads or tails of German, American, light, dark, meat line, egg line,broodiness, fertility, hatching probs, etc..........but ultimately I like this bird and its historical use. It's also noteworthy that our new geographic location would put me in the middle of some folks involved with the breed. I do wonder, with all of the crossing of lines (or is it strains?), why there isn't a compilation of effort to refer to them simply as NH versus GNH/ANH. I found some impressive numbers in regards to feathering and maturation but not much about the fleshing out or broodiness~ two areas that interest me. They do seem like a "fast" bird though compared to other standard bred but really, a rhythm of spring hatch and fall butcher is what I'm after and that's why I'm after a standard bred bird to begin with. That's kind of unclear~ I guess, to me, there isn't anything that would stop me from investing in a variety that was table ready in 22 weeks versus 25 weeks if the other components were in place. Example: bird A is 5lbs, lays 3 eggs/wk, foraging, manageable, etc at 22 weeks; Bird B is 5lbs, lays 3 eggs/wk, foraging, easily managed, etc at 26 weeks with the addition of (the general acknowledgement of) rampant broodiness in the spring. Bird B is where I'm going all day long. I know there are traits that can be developed and there are work arounds for broody hens but I think it's important to consider the canvas on which I can work and it's limitations.
Anyhow, thanks for the suggestion, it's a great one

M

When I think meat, I think 14wk old fryers. They reach a point where the economy of the whole thing goes downhill very fast. I like to/want to go through them @ 12 wks and do some selecting. Take the culls and pen them separately and transition them over to a high energy ration and give them a couple weeks. Then process them. We should be able to get 3.0 - 3.5 lb birds (dressed) at this age.

I want my pullets to come into lay in the 22wk range which means the cockerels are crowing. I do not have any interest in eating the cockerels once they have reached this stage. That is just me and my opinion.

There is always a few cockerels that I decide I do not want @ the 20wk range, and we do eat them. They are not the main goal, however. NHs were built to be good early fryers.

These birds have potential, but it is unrealized. I am not aware of a flock that is where it should be or could be. There are a few that seam to be doing well with them.They are solid and well bred birds, and a pleasure to own. I would not recommend them as a purely utility type flock, however.

I do hope to improve this along the way. I want fryers at the ages and sizes that I mentioned, pullets coming into lay near 22wks, and 200 large to extra large eggs. That is a pretty solid bird and generally useful. I do not care to push for any better than that either way. I am not interested in extremes. I would buy modern laying and meat strains, if that was my interest. Nothing wrong with going for this and that, but what I want to see for this breed is to be a good all round solid bird. It helps that they are attractive birds to look at (or should be).

I am growing wary of the strain names being used. I get the wanting to communicate, but there is a tendency to use the names as if it imparts some sort of value to them. Really, they are good or they are not. They have been here long enough and getting mixed up enough to get passed all of that. People are going to do it though. Names always get tossed around with all breeds. Often it isn't accurate anyways. People go by what they are told, and say it again. It seams that there will always be a need to balance communicating what you have done, and simply throwing around names.

I have crossed strains on the side. I want to make some improvements, but I do not know yet if the effort will be worthwhile. I am certainly not going to commit to it, until there is some evidence that it could help instead of hurt. @ 3/4 now, and will get a look at them this year. I am looking to improve egg size and how and when they flesh out. If they do not look like they will hurt me too much, then I will introduce them into a family, and hope that they will give me some variability from which I can make improvements. I want to maintain some control, and the original "pure" strain that I have played around with is my "control". I do not want to lose what I have, if that makes any sense.

My Catalanas are a different story.

 

[southernmomma]

When I think meat, I think 14wk old fryers. They reach a point where the economy of the whole thing goes downhill very fast. I like to/want to go through them @ 12 wks and do some selecting. Take the culls and pen them separately and transition them over to a high energy ration and give them a couple weeks. Then process them. We should be able to get 3.0 - 3.5 lb birds (dressed) at this age.

That's impressive to me. I wait longer than that for some of my vegetables. I wait all year to eat strawberries, all year for fresh peaches, all year for venison. 12-14 weeks from hatch to cull is awesome in my opinion. Granted I'm investing more of my time during those weeks than I do with vegetables but this is not exclusively about putting food in my mouth~ if it was I would be figuring out how to cram 50 freedom rangers into a field pen.
You say "should be able to", what is the reality?

I want my pullets to come into lay in the 22wk range which means the cockerels are crowing. I do not have any interest in eating the cockerels once they have reached this stage. That is just me and my opinion.

There is always a few cockerels that I decide I do not want @ the 20wk range, and we do eat them. They are not the main goal, however. NHs were built to be good early fryers.
Okay, so this is what you're referring to when speaking of the laying on of flesh, correct? I'm working on my lingo, lol.

These birds have potential, but it is unrealized. I am not aware of a flock that is where it should be or could be. There are a few that seam to be doing well with them.They are solid and well bred birds, and a pleasure to own. I would not recommend them as a purely utility type flock, however.
How so? Why not? This is part of the puzzle I feel like I'm missing a piece to. I need to understand in order to make my own decisions and not just think well so and so says this is what I should do so....

I do hope to improve this along the way. I want fryers at the ages and sizes that I mentioned, pullets coming into lay near 22wks, and 200 large to extra large eggs. That is a pretty solid bird and generally useful. I do not care to push for any better than that either way. I am not interested in extremes. I would buy modern laying and meat strains, if that was my interest. Nothing wrong with going for this and that, but what I want to see for this breed is to be a good all round solid bird. It helps that they are attractive birds to look at (or should be).
I honestly feel that my expectations are pretty low~ 3/4lbs at around 4ish months, 150 eggs. The rub is that ideally they brood their own chicks. I'm sure I'll have to find some clucky cochins to do the grunt work but it really bugs me that I have to do that. Actually, it's one of the only reasons I think the YHF white dorking may win me over.

I am growing wary of the strain names being used. I get the wanting to communicate, but there is a tendency to use the names as if it imparts some sort of value to them. Really, they are good or they are not. They have been here long enough and getting mixed up enough to get passed all of that. People are going to do it though. Names always get tossed around with all breeds. Often it isn't accurate anyways. People go by what they are told, and say it again. It seams that there will always be a need to balance communicating what you have done, and simply throwing around names.

I have crossed strains on the side. I want to make some improvements, but I do not know yet if the effort will be worthwhile. I am certainly not going to commit to it, until there is some evidence that it could help instead of hurt. @ 3/4 now, and will get a look at them this year. I am looking to improve egg size and how and when they flesh out. If they do not look like they will hurt me too much, then I will introduce them into a family, and hope that they will give me some variability from which I can make improvements. I want to maintain some control, and the original "pure" strain that I have played around with is my "control". I do not want to lose what I have, if that makes any sense.
And you started with American NH's? Would you lean one way or the other if I asked you to make a recommendation?

My Catalanas are a different story.
I suspect they may be the talk of the town one day.

Cheers,
M

 

[YardBirdMom]

Form's relation to function, and vice versa, varies from breed to breed like it would in horses. To get it, is to get to know a breed and know why it should be what it is.

I 'hear' you and understand, but realize my learning curve is HUGE and as a newbie my first priority is to simply figure out how to keep said chickies alive long enough TO get to know them as a breed

In the meantime, I shall read all this information that is 'over' my head and start the learning process. It does appear I am in good company for that and thank you all very much for having a thread of this nature which allows people like me to 'pick' your brains! I'm smart enough to know when I am surrounded by guru's and offer you the guru homage --->

 

[gjensen]

Southernmomma,

I need to figure out this quote thing. I will try that later.

12wks for picking, and 14 wks for the first round of culling is an ideal of sorts. Not unrealistic though. The Reese cross that Jeremy shared with me did just that. I was not the only one that had that experience. They did not have the carcass of a colored broiler, but I felt they fit that ideal quite nicely. Granted their was some hybrid vigor involved. I know someone that has a line of Delaware that could achieve similar numbers with good management.
The reality is a difference of a difference of about 4wks. My grief is the feather vs. qty of flesh early on. It is more of the way the grow out, than when they grow out. The pullets are coming into lay in the 26-28 wk. range. The difference is the same when the crossed strain with vigor was 20-22wks.

I say that I would not recommend them for someone with a utility type ideal in mind, because they have not been selected along those lines. One is what I mentioned above. Then the lay rate needs a little work. They are up and down, of course, but the end up averaging 4 per wk. They are in the 160-180 pa in the pullet year. 140-160 in the hen year. The eggs size is medium to medium large. I had not put any real emphasis on egg size. I was mostly concerned with width and depth, and rate of growth (among some other things). I have come to the conclusion that egg size would need to be introduced, as the size is pretty uniform across the board in my flock. Not a lot of egg culling that I can do.
I would not recommend them for this purpose unless the egg size was large, they laid 20-30 more per year, came into lay a 4wks earlier, and the males were ready at least two weeks earlier. This is not impossible to improve on, but there are a host of other tings that need to be worked on. It can be a bit overwhelming to start. It takes hatching in some pretty large qty in order to be able to select for these production type characteristics, and still have enough to choose some concerning the more outward breed characteristics. I also think it also means retaining more pullets, in order to weed through them in the first year.
I would have no problem with someone wanting an attractive looking flock, that laid enough eggs for a family, and wanted to process some extra cockerels. Or even try showing a few birds.
That is if they understood really where they were, and their expectations were tempered.
They would meet your expectations, but are not reliably broody.

They are also easy to manage and a delight to own. They have better color when they are younger. This breed and other light colored gold based varieties tend to lose some color after a molt or two.

Of course, I am speaking of my own. Others may have had different experiences.

If I was to make a recommendation concerning strain, it would only be that you are familiar with breed type and find some decent examples to start with. Some have done better than others with the. It is hard to dig out of a hole. I have seen some junk floating around, and some decent birds. Nothing that makes my heart go pitter patter.

I am guessing that you would like them. They are a good American breed and can use some attention.

This is a picture of a cockerel at 24-26 wks. I do not have him anymore. You can see that size is not a problem.




This is a picture of a young pullet about the same age that is coming into lay, but not quite filled out. I do not think that I kept her. Not certain though.




The Catalanas are even more of a rebuilding project, but I like them a lot. They are averaging 5.6 eggs per week right now, and two pullets are hurting my average. They are laying large and extra large eggs. They come into lay right at 20wks. They mature exceptionally fast, but the males take a long time to reach a final weight, and fill out to late. I think vigor is in part the problem. I will be able to fix some of that in the next couple generations.