BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[rc50]

HI.. what did you do the out-cross to ?


Keith

 

[gjensen]

I just recently finished all 377 pages on this thread. Utility and production are at the heart of my goals/mission so I am certainly keeping up with this discussion. Nice, constructive discourse. Refreshing. I was reading the ALBC pages regarding breeding for better birds and found this which made me chuckle a bit...


"An entire book could be written on culling. It is the single most beneficial practice that poultrymen can use to better the quality and health of their flocks. An old saying is that the best tool you can use to improve the quality of your birds is an axe! "

"A well-known Leghorn breeder and poultry judge, Mr. Richard Holmes, used to tell a story about a master breeder of White Leghorns who in his early years hired an older poultry judge to come and cull his flock. The old judge locked himself in the poultry house and started catching and killing Leghorns. The story goes that the discards came fast and heavy. When the judge was finished the breeder had only one trio left out of 150 birds. The breeder later commented that from that day forward he made progress!"

Reference: Chicken Assessment for Improving Productivity, Chapter 3; http://albc-usa.etapwss.com/images/uploads/docs/ALBCchicken_assessment-3.pdf




I look forward to following more discussion of this subject matter and hope to post some of my future observations, gains and challenges as well. Cheers!

I agree that it is the most important thing we do. Killing the most inefficient birds, is the best way to improve an average, and insure that we breed better birds etc. etc.

Everyone that has actually tried to breed birds for any time would agree that bird culling is the first and most important thing we do concerning selection.

In short, for those of us that try to breed productive birds, we eat what is not worth feeding. That is what we do with chicken, we eat it. Culling can mean than we separate ourselves from a bird that is not going to be helpful (or be harmful) genetically. Usually that does mean that we kill the bird, and remove it from making any genetic contributions, any where.

Genetics within a population has a relationship with averages and tendencies. A percentage of the birds are the smallest, and largest. The majority is some where in between. We see that played out over and again. What we do find consistently is that our best birds are in the top 5%-10%. That is common sense, but is fundamental concerning breeding. You breed the top 5-10%, and kill the rest. Not many want to hatch and rear enough birds, to select enough breeding birds.

See, a problem comes in when we hatch 30 birds, but want to use 15. The replacements will be, by the numbers ( in theory), be average. Now it literally takes thousands to realize these averages appropriately but you see the point. In reality though, those 15 birds can represent better than average or far worse than average. Usually in between, and as a result, average. Keeping and breeding average birds eventually begins to perpetuate less than average birds. Populations do tend to shift, and their tendency is to shift is in a direction that we do not want them to go.

A fundamental tool in getting going in the right direction, and keep going in the right direction, is by ruthlessly culling many, and breeding few. Your best birds always end up being the birds that never presented reason enough to cull it.

Now a problem is discussing this. Everyone's interpretation of what a cull is a different thing all together. We are keeping different breeds, or crosses, and for much different reasons. Within a breed and variety e can agree on what a cull is, most of the time. Outside of that context we do not have much that hold us together. Therefore the comments and concepts are generalized in nature.

Now I am going to wander philosophically for a moment. You may or may not be familiar with some things that I will imply. I cannot resist commenting, because I truly believe that it underscores these concepts.

When we choose to breed an animal, of any sort, we have hands in their creation and development. Breed stewardship, as any stewardship really is, does involve bringing that object into a submission of sorts. To rule over something is to cause it to submit to your own will. You are making those decisions, choosing what pleases you and what does not. We discard what does not please us, and emphasize what does. All at our good pleasure.
In an orchard etc. that can mean uprooting plants, and or pruning them. Something that seams harsh but is to your benefit, and the plants benefit. Left to their own devices the orchard will not be particularly productive, will not thrive, and will deteriorate. Good management, good loving care, and the ability to make hard (and harsh) choices, enable it to thrive and adequately serve the purposes for which it was planted.

When I pair my birds up, hatch and grow out what I do, I choose what pleases me and what does not. I move forward with a remnant of what I started with. I may have hatched many, but I will have chose few.
I raise these birds for my own reasons. Their very existence is at my own good pleasure. I have no moral obligations to continue with them. Therefore, I am free to be especially selective concerning what I do end up choosing. A possession of my own that I actually make a claim to.

I am going to go a step further by saying that the flock, its health and vigor, it's progress, it's productivity, the truth of it and the lie of it, all reflects on us as the breeder. Philosophies, ideologies, etc. all bare fruit. They do not all bare good fruit. Eventually when they reach their logical terminus, they are revealed for what they are, and the fruit ripens. To the good or bad.
Now we do not necessarily see the fruit for what it is immediately, but do eventually.

Now I wandered a bit off track, but I tried to make a point. Our choices and decisions do reflect on us. The birds do belong to us, and are at our mercy. They serve at our good pleasure.We are not subject to them, and not at their mercy. Our success or lack of does reflect on our decisions which are a product of our ideologies and philosophies. It does not reflect on the birds or the excuses that we make.
When we cull, we are making decisions on the future of that flock. We should want the best for it, and only breed the best. To do it, does require some hatching and killing. That is part of it.

Killing is part of it, and it requires a lot. If you enjoy eating chicken, that is not a problem. That is what we are supposed to do with chicken. Eat it, and their eggs.

 

[Our Roost]

150 birds and only a trio to be left with after culling! So when mentors prompt me to hatch out mass numbers of project birds to work with so I can select a handful to keep for breeding I begin getting frustrated with those efforts and lines of thinking. First off, being a relatively small time enthusiast housing no more birds than I can handle, going big or going home doesn't work for me. Only being involved with raising chickens for a little over 4 years the questions of who, what, when, and how is very important when your ambitions take you deeper into the world of creation and all the different elements of breeding. I not only inquire but also depend on relative information provided by more people in the know and evaluate what I have been told. The definitions of breeding techniques alone will cause you to question whether you are outcrossing or crossbreeding or something totally different like creating a hybrid. Utility breeding is the best way I can explain my efforts using what I consider good progeny stock to get there. Using smaller numbers to work with is not to say a lot of culling wont be done and necessary while choosing the best choices from small numbers. The overall effort to me is continuous improvement. When you utility breed, basically you are establishing your own perspective of what you want from your efforts. You are tinkering with genetics and some unknowns which haven't been created by you. No one has defined or set any SOP standards in which to guide you except the chickens themselves!

 

[collie1470]

This thread is fabulous. I plan to keep a few breeds to start and compare how much/often they lay, what size and quality eggs... and how much meat we get from them and what quality....compare weights/ages of them, etc...and eventually go on to hybridize to try and give us just what we're looking for. Ours will have to do well in the cold, too, so that'll have to factor in (keeping combs small, etc).

 

[3riverschick]

what kind of collies do you have?
Best,
Karen

 

[Our Roost]

collie1470, A lot of work for a book keeper, LOL! If you select and start with the right breed you will save yourself a lot of time getting to where you want to be without all the record keeping. Almost if not all of the items you mentioned can be mostly found to be sufficient by doing some extensive reading about what a bird has to offer. If you find you are still not happy, then go ahead and start your new creative hybrid.

 

[3riverschick]

This thread is fabulous. I plan to keep a few breeds to start and compare how much/often they lay, what size and quality eggs... and how much meat we get from them and what quality....compare weights/ages of them, etc...and eventually go on to hybridize to try and give us just what we're looking for. Ours will have to do well in the cold, too, so that'll have to factor in (keeping combs small, etc).

If you want a breed that was already bred for all these things, might check out the well bred Rosecomb Rhode Island Reds. The BYC thread Heritage Large Fowl Phase II has several top breeders of this breed in its membership. Or maybe you are wanting to create a new breed. I can't tell from your letter. In any case, there are a bred with a rich literary history, great info for anyone wanting to breed birds with those traits.

Here's an author who has been such help to me in my breeding program. I love the "Chicken Colours" book and eagerly await the chance to buy the "Genetics of Chicken Extremiities" book ( translates from the European as Extremes" ). http://www.chickencolours.com
Best Success,
Karen

 

[collie1470]

I'm personally not a fan of RIRs. A friend of mine's parents had a bunch of them when we were growing up, and they loved to chase kids. Since we plan on having a family, that's something I want to do my best to avoid (without having to get rid of otherwise fine birds).

 

[Beekissed]

After listening to the breeders of RIR on the heritage thread, I get the impression that heirloom RIRs are vastly different than hatchery stock RIRs and the roosters are more docile, less aggressive, as are the hens. Like night and day's difference. I'd LOVE to have some heritage breeder stock RIRs in my flock...they are beautiful and have a wonderful heritage here in America and have contributed so many good genes to the poultry world.

 

[ronott1]

I'm personally not a fan of RIRs. A friend of mine's parents had a bunch of them when we were growing up, and they loved to chase kids. Since we plan on having a family, that's something I want to do my best to avoid (without having to get rid of otherwise fine birds)

Those were probably not what we are talking about. The RIRs from a hatchery are very different.

The red chicken on the right is from a hatchery.



These are Mowhak RIRs