BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[DesertChic]

Absolutely concur. If you have ANY birds, regardless of gender or lack thereof, crammed into tight quarters, any of several problems can arise...from feather picking to cannibalism.

Yeah...I learned about the feather picking the hard way. I gave my Dorking-esque chickens more than six sq. ft per bird in their pen and multiple roosts and feed/water stations and they still plucked feathers from one another. It wasn't until I separated the boys and girls that things calmed down.

They sure do take up a lot of space. Yet one more reason I want to cull them.

 

[JRNash]

At what age did you seperate them Desertchic?

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

OK, guys, I've been tying myself in knots with my plans, including looking at breeding pens, thinking about multiple roosters, etc., to the point where I can't quite keep everything I've read straight, and I think I'm losing my mind. So, since my primary goal is production, this thread seemed the right place to ask some input/advice/opinions from folks with more experience than I have.

I have two separate goals - eggs and meat. I think the best approach for my goals is to maintain two separate flocks.

Egg flock: Cream Legbars and Black Copper Marans (Goal: egg colors - blue, dark brown, and olive eggers from F1 cross, fun playing with F2 crosses and back crosses. BCM over CCLs will allow sexing of chicks at hatch.)

Meat flock: Naked necks and New Hampshire Reds (not adverse to adding a BCM with good meat bird characteristics to this down the road) (Goal: yummy birds, possibility of faster growing meatier hybrid with same heat resistant qualities of NN - so, would like pure NNs and NNxNH crosses. NHRs are supposed to be good layers, but with the number of chickens I'm looking at, I'll already be awash in eggs, so subtleties of egg production aren't as crucial. May try to add a Cx hen to this for NN toads down the road.)

Muscovy meat flock: I'm planning to get chocolate muscovies in the spring and keep one drake and several ducks to establish a flock for meat. I don't have questions about that specifically, but they will be wandering around the property (1.6 acres, 1 effective acre in back), eating bugs and/or being broody.

SIMPLEST VERSION:

Meat flock in either a tractor similar to JessicaThistles (well built, sturdy, about 60 sq ft I think), or other tractor-type coop, moved regularly with electric netting and overhead aviary netting (hawks!!!) for paddock ranging. (I have roughly 1 acre in the back to use as "pasture".) I am picking up 15 Nacked Neck and 10 New Hampshire Red straight run chicks from Ideal in early September. I would raise these, select about 3-4 NN pullets and 3-4 NHR pullets for breeding and one NN cockerel to serve as cock-of-the-flock. These would constitute my meat flock, and I could breed for both pure NNs (selecting for the best nakedness of necks/no bowties to ensure homozygous breeders to use for hybrids, as well as speed and quality of growth), as well as NNxNHR crosses (and their progeny). For more pure NHRs, I would have to intermittently get more NHR pullets/chicks from a hatchery or breeder.

Egg flock in static coop in shade with paddock for ranging. I already have three cream legbar pullets nearing POL. I am getting some BCM chicks (or maybe hatching eggs) from a breeder near me later this fall. I would keep 3 or so BCM pullets and the best BCM cockerel to serve as cock-of-the-flock. These, with my cream legbars, would constitute my egg-laying flock, and I could breed for both pure BCMs and F1 olive eggers (BCM x CCL). For more CCL hens, I would have to intermittently get more CCL pullets - as they are auto sexing, this shouldn't be too high drama (meaning I shouldn't have to get a bunch of straight run chicks to get desired pullets). But they're costly.

MORE COMPLICATED VERSION (Here's where I have questions about roosters)

Meat flock as above, but also keeping an additional rooster out of the NHR straight run chicks. As I understand it, I would need to keep the roosters separate. Given my breeding goals, I could simply swap out the roosters, either throughout the year or just during breeding season, keeping the one not "in rotation" in a rooster condo by himself. This would add the ability to get more pure NHRs - I hear good things about NHRs with regard to production, and they're supposed to do ok in heat, so this appeals to me. Maintaining a separate solo condo for a lonely rooster is less appealing, and I would need to think through how best to make that work. Note that the NHR and NN rooster would have "grown up together", possibly increasing their ability to get along, but I have read that that all goes to hell when you introduce hens to the equation, so I'm not sure what to think.

Egg flock as above, but adding a CCL rooster to the program. As above, as I understand it, I would need to keep the roosters separate, and could simply swap out the roosters throughout the year or in breeding season, keeping the one not "in rotation" in a rooster condo by himself. This would add the ability to get CCLs. Note, however, that as CCLs are a new breed with limited genetic diversity here in the US, even if I'm not aiming for SOP, really important practical factors like autosexing (one of the most important features) can be lost easily when trying to breed oneself with limited stock. I'm not in love with this idea for the egg flock, but I'm including it for completeness. CCL cockerel chicks are much cheaper than pullets, and I'm honestly just out for blue eggs and I like the personality and features of the breed (not trying to sell chicks or anything), so if I figure the rooster thing out for the NHRs, I may consider the same solution for a CCL rooster.

Rooster questions for the complicated version:

Which option would potentially work best?
1. House both roosters together year round (hoping they get along), and placing one at a time with the hens during breeding season. This would require an additional separate housing, another set of feeders and waterers to manage, figuring out how to range them on their own (I want happy roosters, not keeping them locked up all the time), and needing to worry that they're suddenly going to start wanting to kill each other. Another downside to this is that they won't bond with and protect the flock (main issue will be hawks, but I hope to use aviary netting over their paddocks, so not sure this is an issue).

2. House one of the roosters with the flock at all times, but switch them out (say, 6 months each). This allows a rooster to be part of the flock at all times, makes the management of breedings a little less demanding, timing-wise, and keeps the roosters from being housed together. I would still have to manage a separate "residence" for the lonely rooster and give him outside time. Not having had roosters, I don't know whether this would be an "unhappy" rooster, or if they do fine housed on their own.

3. Is there a good third option?

(I don't get the impression that running both roosters with the flock will be a good idea, as they'll be confined to the tractor at least part of most days. I'm thinking bloodshed would follow.)

A few notes:
- As I've tried to keep my goals simple, and I can't be home all day, I don't currently plan to use trap nests (though I may reconsider this later). For the egg flock, I will be able to make some decisions based on egg color alone, which is a bonus.

- I am currently committed to full enclosure predator protection of my flocks (and using netting to keep them apart as appropriate). While I'm having an 8 foot fence rebuilt around the property (as we speak!), there are enough overhanging trees to risk climbing predators like raccoons, and hawks nest on the property, so they would range with protection, and likely only when I'm home. Also, at one point a few years ago, almost ALL of my neighbors had crowing roosters (we're allowed roosters). Yes, they crowed at 2AM. I got used to it, never bothered me. However, no one has roosters now (though one neighbor next door has a LOUD guinea hen). So I MAY try the no crow collars just to be a good neighbor and not cause a nuisance.

OK, let me know what you think! Simple version is easiest, likely best, but I'd love to hear any strategies to have the two rooster option. I also need to think through bringing up junior cockerels to replace the old guys eventually - I guess that works better in the one rooster flock? You tell me...
(And maybe some of your answers can help DesertChic who I believe is also in the head-blowing-up phase, breeding-pen-wise...

)

- Ant Farm

(Edited for typos, etc. - my grammar sucks late at night...)

 

[JRNash]

I feel your pain. By the time its all said and done I will have 6 different breeds of rooster. My intentions are to house the roosters together in a very large pen. Ive ordered production black hens for my white eggs. Ay no time will I allow the roosters free access to the hens. A seperate smaller divided pen will be used to pair up the rooster with the chosen hen,the breeder areas will be of sufficient size to allow hen to raise her brood. If i like the cross characteristics I will retain the arrangements for the chosen a breeds.
I'm hoping that in a couple years time I will have narrowed down the meat flock requirements. I guess what it amounts to is how much control you want to have in your experiments. In my past experiences with chickens Ive had good results housing multiple roosters together. They will fight until they establish a pecking order. And also when a young one thinks he can become the new boss. If they have enough room the weaker male will cut and run when he's had enough. I doubt if this helped i kinda lost my train of thought

 

[neopolitancrazy]

OK, guys, I've been tying myself in knots with my plans... I think I'm losing my mind...

I have two separate goals - eggs and meat.

Egg flock: Cream Legbars and Black Copper Marans (Goal: egg colors - blue, dark brown, and olive eggers...

Meat flock: Naked necks and New Hampshire Reds...

SIMPLEST VERSION:

Meat flock in ...tractor-type coop... I am picking up 15 Nacked Neck and 10 New Hampshire Red straight run chicks from Ideal in early September. I would...select ... pullets ...for breeding and one NN cockerel...I could breed for both pure NNs... as well as NNxNHR crosses...

Egg flock in static coop in shade with paddock for ranging. I already have three cream legbar pullets nearing POL. I am getting some BCM ...later this fall.... I could breed for both pure BCMs and F1 olive eggers...

MORE COMPLICATED VERSION...

3. Is there a good third option?...

I can see why you are confused, as I get confused/exhausted just reading your "simplest" version.

I, too, work off-property, want to provide my family with eggs and meat, like a multi-colored egg basket, and keep most of my chickens in mobile coops. I don't sell eggs to the public, so don't need as many hens as you are planning. I just buy individual females to produce the novelty egg colors. I find this to be cheaper and simpler than raising my own replacements, and it allows me to devote most of my pen space to growing out juveniles in my favorite variety. (How far south of me are you? There is a big chicken show in College Station every January, with swap meets in Austin spring and fall. These are convenient to me, near Bastrop.)

Also, you can house the off-duty roosters with your juvenile cockerels, which helps simplify things.

I wouldn't fool with silencing collars, just butcher the cull roosters asap.

I like to compare finding the right chicken breed(s) to dating, you may try quite a few before you find "the one" you want to devote yourself to for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try to have fun with it, keep it simple and start where you are with what you have. All chickens lay eggs, and all chickens have meat on their bones, so a single strain may eventually meet all your needs.

Best wishes,
Angela

p.s. Putting the chickens out on pasture cut way down on the number of fire ants around here.

 

[hellbender]

I can see why you are confused, as I get confused/exhausted just reading your "simplest" version.

I, too, work off-property, want to provide my family with eggs and meat, like a multi-colored egg basket, and keep most of my chickens in mobile coops. I don't sell eggs to the public, so don't need as many hens as you are planning. I just buy individual females to produce the novelty egg colors. I find this to be cheaper and simpler than raising my own replacements, and it allows me to devote most of my pen space to growing out juveniles in my favorite variety. (How far south of me are you? There is a big chicken show in College Station every January, with swap meets in Austin spring and fall. These are convenient to me, near Bastrop.)

Also, you can house the off-duty roosters with your juvenile cockerels, which helps simplify things.

I wouldn't fool with silencing collars, just butcher the cull roosters asap.

I like to compare finding the right chicken breed(s) to dating, you may try quite a few before you find "the one" you want to devote yourself to for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try to have fun with it, keep it simple and start where you are with what you have. All chickens lay eggs, and all chickens have meat on their bones, so a single strain may eventually meet all your needs.

Best wishes,
Angela

p.s. Putting the chickens out on pasture cut way down on the number of fire ants around here.

Totally agree. I have given long thought to this and rather than trying to re-invent the wheel, I've chosen two breeds that others have put a LOT of work into already and I will simply benefit from their labors.

 

[hellbender]

@draye...one of my two retained breeds IS indeed the .....................Naked Neck...the other is Chantecler. I'm so impressed by these birds.

 

[draye]

@draye...one of my two retained breeds IS indeed the .....................Naked Neck...the other is Chantecler.  I'm so impressed by these birds.

Yes the NN is indeed impressive.
I currently have done Welsummers hens but not really that impressed by them. I've had them about 2 months now and have gotten exactly 5 eggs from them. I knew when I got then they were molting but I think they should have picked up by now.

I'm running a Jersey Giant with a few if my hens right now trying to improve size a little. Not wanting a giant sized NN but just a bit bigger than usual.

This coming September I'll be selling off three of my roosters, I have skins reserves that I'm wanting to use in my Calico NN project.

I'm really looking around for some higher production (eggs) breeds to infuse into the NN. Mine lay pretty well but feel they could improve just a bit more. I like the every other day layers.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I feel your pain. By the time its all said and done I will have 6 different breeds of rooster. My intentions are to house the roosters together in a very large pen. Ive ordered production black hens for my white eggs. Ay no time will I allow the roosters free access to the hens. A seperate smaller divided pen will be used to pair up the rooster with the chosen hen,the breeder areas will be of sufficient size to allow hen to raise her brood. If i like the cross characteristics I will retain the arrangements for the chosen a breeds.
I'm hoping that in a couple years time I will have narrowed down the meat flock requirements. I guess what it amounts to is how much control you want to have in your experiments. In my past experiences with chickens Ive had good results housing multiple roosters together. They will fight until they establish a pecking order. And also when a young one thinks he can become the new boss. If they have enough room the weaker male will cut and run when he's had enough. I doubt if this helped i kinda lost my train of thought

I can see why you are confused, as I get confused/exhausted just reading your "simplest" version.

I, too, work off-property, want to provide my family with eggs and meat, like a multi-colored egg basket, and keep most of my chickens in mobile coops. I don't sell eggs to the public, so don't need as many hens as you are planning. I just buy individual females to produce the novelty egg colors. I find this to be cheaper and simpler than raising my own replacements, and it allows me to devote most of my pen space to growing out juveniles in my favorite variety. (How far south of me are you? There is a big chicken show in College Station every January, with swap meets in Austin spring and fall. These are convenient to me, near Bastrop.)

Also, you can house the off-duty roosters with your juvenile cockerels, which helps simplify things.

I wouldn't fool with silencing collars, just butcher the cull roosters asap.

I like to compare finding the right chicken breed(s) to dating, you may try quite a few before you find "the one" you want to devote yourself to for the foreseeable future. In the meantime, try to have fun with it, keep it simple and start where you are with what you have. All chickens lay eggs, and all chickens have meat on their bones, so a single strain may eventually meet all your needs.

Best wishes,
Angela

p.s. Putting the chickens out on pasture cut way down on the number of fire ants around here.

This is all VERY helpful. I am not planning to sell eggs, but when I start adding up who I want to GIVE eggs/meat in exchange for helping me tend the chickens when I'm gone or other services, or for barter (e.g., for milk), it just appeals to me to have a self-sustaining/producing flock (and I think BCM roosters are pretty!). The silencing would be for the breeding roosters that are sticking around, I was thinking. I think part of why I'm so exhausted with this is that I AM probably getting way ahead of myself and need to start simpler - I appreciate the encouragement to do just that. I DO want to breed Naked Necks and NNxNHRs, so I will probably at a minimum keep one or a couple good NN roosters from the batch of chicks this fall. JRNash, thanks for the input on housing roosters together and specific pairings. I'm also re-reading the Storey's Guide section on breeding as well. I think keeping roosters together separately and all the hens together in one coop will allow me to keep things simpler, housing-wise, and also be flexible enough for any future plans...

And yes, Angela, my girls LOVE fire ants!!! You should have seen the carnage when they found their first fire ant mound in their run/pen at about 10 weeks old (under a waterer that I moved). It was a massacre... Very satisfying to watch.

Here's another question, then. Seems simple, but... for those of you who don't just do total free range (but instead do a movable pasture/paddock type system), how do you move your chickens to where you want them to be for the day? While ideally I would have paddocks like wedges of a pie based from the coop, and rotate them in each in turn, I may wish to be able to put them elsewhere from time to time. For instance, at a minimum, I would like my chickens to turn over some of my garden beds at the end of the season - I can't imagine rounding them all up in little cages and carrying them back to where I want them one by one... Or is that what people do?!

- Ant Farm

Edit to add: @hellbender and @draye , if I had to pick only one breed, it would likely be the Naked Necks.

 

[gjensen]

OK, guys, I've been tying myself in knots with my plans, including looking at breeding pens, thinking about multiple roosters, etc., to the point where I can't quite keep everything I've read straight, and I think I'm losing my mind. So, since my primary goal is production, this thread seemed the right place to ask some input/advice/opinions from folks with more experience than I have.

I have two separate goals - eggs and meat. I think the best approach for my goals is to maintain two separate flocks.

Egg flock: Cream Legbars and Black Copper Marans (Goal: egg colors - blue, dark brown, and olive eggers from F1 cross, fun playing with F2 crosses and back crosses. BCM over CCLs will allow sexing of chicks at hatch.)

Meat flock: Naked necks and New Hampshire Reds (not adverse to adding a BCM with good meat bird characteristics to this down the road) (Goal: yummy birds, possibility of faster growing meatier hybrid with same heat resistant qualities of NN - so, would like pure NNs and NNxNH crosses. NHRs are supposed to be good layers, but with the number of chickens I'm looking at, I'll already be awash in eggs, so subtleties of egg production aren't as crucial. May try to add a Cx hen to this for NN toads down the road.)

Muscovy meat flock: I'm planning to get chocolate muscovies in the spring and keep one drake and several ducks to establish a flock for meat. I don't have questions about that specifically, but they will be wandering around the property (1.6 acres, 1 effective acre in back), eating bugs and/or being broody.

SIMPLEST VERSION:

Meat flock in either a tractor similar to JessicaThistles (well built, sturdy, about 60 sq ft I think), or other tractor-type coop, moved regularly with electric netting and overhead aviary netting (hawks!!!) for paddock ranging. (I have roughly 1 acre in the back to use as "pasture".) I am picking up 15 Nacked Neck and 10 New Hampshire Red straight run chicks from Ideal in early September. I would raise these, select about 3-4 NN pullets and 3-4 NHR pullets for breeding and one NN cockerel to serve as cock-of-the-flock. These would constitute my meat flock, and I could breed for both pure NNs (selecting for the best nakedness of necks/no bowties to ensure homozygous breeders to use for hybrids, as well as speed and quality of growth), as well as NNxNHR crosses (and their progeny). For more pure NHRs, I would have to intermittently get more NHR pullets/chicks from a hatchery or breeder.

Egg flock in static coop in shade with paddock for ranging. I already have three cream legbar pullets nearing POL. I am getting some BCM chicks (or maybe hatching eggs) from a breeder near me later this fall. I would keep 3 or so BCM pullets and the best BCM cockerel to serve as cock-of-the-flock. These, with my cream legbars, would constitute my egg-laying flock, and I could breed for both pure BCMs and F1 olive eggers (BCM x CCL). For more CCL hens, I would have to intermittently get more CCL pullets - as they are auto sexing, this shouldn't be too high drama (meaning I shouldn't have to get a bunch of straight run chicks to get desired pullets). But they're costly.

MORE COMPLICATED VERSION (Here's where I have questions about roosters)

Meat flock as above, but also keeping an additional rooster out of the NHR straight run chicks. As I understand it, I would need to keep the roosters separate. Given my breeding goals, I could simply swap out the roosters, either throughout the year or just during breeding season, keeping the one not "in rotation" in a rooster condo by himself. This would add the ability to get more pure NHRs - I hear good things about NHRs with regard to production, and they're supposed to do ok in heat, so this appeals to me. Maintaining a separate solo condo for a lonely rooster is less appealing, and I would need to think through how best to make that work. Note that the NHR and NN rooster would have "grown up together", possibly increasing their ability to get along, but I have read that that all goes to hell when you introduce hens to the equation, so I'm not sure what to think.

Egg flock as above, but adding a CCL rooster to the program. As above, as I understand it, I would need to keep the roosters separate, and could simply swap out the roosters throughout the year or in breeding season, keeping the one not "in rotation" in a rooster condo by himself. This would add the ability to get CCLs. Note, however, that as CCLs are a new breed with limited genetic diversity here in the US, even if I'm not aiming for SOP, really important practical factors like autosexing (one of the most important features) can be lost easily when trying to breed oneself with limited stock. I'm not in love with this idea for the egg flock, but I'm including it for completeness. CCL cockerel chicks are much cheaper than pullets, and I'm honestly just out for blue eggs and I like the personality and features of the breed (not trying to sell chicks or anything), so if I figure the rooster thing out for the NHRs, I may consider the same solution for a CCL rooster.

Rooster questions for the complicated version:

Which option would potentially work best?
1. House both roosters together year round (hoping they get along), and placing one at a time with the hens during breeding season. This would require an additional separate housing, another set of feeders and waterers to manage, figuring out how to range them on their own (I want happy roosters, not keeping them locked up all the time), and needing to worry that they're suddenly going to start wanting to kill each other. Another downside to this is that they won't bond with and protect the flock (main issue will be hawks, but I hope to use aviary netting over their paddocks, so not sure this is an issue).

2. House one of the roosters with the flock at all times, but switch them out (say, 6 months each). This allows a rooster to be part of the flock at all times, makes the management of breedings a little less demanding, timing-wise, and keeps the roosters from being housed together. I would still have to manage a separate "residence" for the lonely rooster and give him outside time. Not having had roosters, I don't know whether this would be an "unhappy" rooster, or if they do fine housed on their own.

3. Is there a good third option?

(I don't get the impression that running both roosters with the flock will be a good idea, as they'll be confined to the tractor at least part of most days. I'm thinking bloodshed would follow.)

A few notes:
- As I've tried to keep my goals simple, and I can't be home all day, I don't currently plan to use trap nests (though I may reconsider this later). For the egg flock, I will be able to make some decisions based on egg color alone, which is a bonus.

- I am currently committed to full enclosure predator protection of my flocks (and using netting to keep them apart as appropriate). While I'm having an 8 foot fence rebuilt around the property (as we speak!), there are enough overhanging trees to risk climbing predators like raccoons, and hawks nest on the property, so they would range with protection, and likely only when I'm home. Also, at one point a few years ago, almost ALL of my neighbors had crowing roosters (we're allowed roosters). Yes, they crowed at 2AM. I got used to it, never bothered me. However, no one has roosters now (though one neighbor next door has a LOUD guinea hen). So I MAY try the no crow collars just to be a good neighbor and not cause a nuisance.

OK, let me know what you think! Simple version is easiest, likely best, but I'd love to hear any strategies to have the two rooster option. I also need to think through bringing up junior cockerels to replace the old guys eventually - I guess that works better in the one rooster flock? You tell me...
(And maybe some of your answers can help DesertChic who I believe is also in the head-blowing-up phase, breeding-pen-wise...

)

- Ant Farm

(Edited for typos, etc. - my grammar sucks late at night...)

I do not have time to read all of this and think about it enough to give a thoughtful response.

I could simplify it for you though.

Stick with Naked Necks or New Hampshires (or some other breed), and simplify all of the above by sticking to a single breed. New Hampshires and Naked Necks (among many others) should be good layers. Not great, but plenty good enough.

It does not take many hens to bury a family in eggs. It does not take many hens to produce enough eggs for a replacement flock which is also your meat birds.

In a home setting, a single dual purpose breed is the simplest and most efficient method. It is only a matter of learning to breed what you have.

If you want to benefit from the advantages of a cross, traditional simple crosses are the way to go.

The idea of an egg and a meat flock is overdone unless you have a commercial operation. If you "want to go back in time" and operate as a small farm or homestead, a single dual purpose breed is best.

One.

One single breed is simple and as a result, more effective.

Flock mating is the simplest method for beginners, and still used by some master breeders. It does allow more room for error with beginners. You cannot get much simpler than a single flock. There is nothing wrong with managing a single flock. How simple is that?

Otherwise, two families is enough if someone has access to good and compatible stock.

Down the road if you want to breed and be faithful to a breed, then you can get more specific and involved. A single flock of birds does produce meat and eggs.