BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[JRNash]

I apologize for GETTING us out in left field. I would like to try some cross breeding to see how it effects type.

 

[bnjrob]

I apologize for GETTING us out in left field. I would like to try some cross breeding to see how it effects type.

If you are trying to do any SOP breeding, cross breeding will affect type negatively. In fact, you don't even have to cross breed to see how type is affected. You can see how type is affected simply by mating two birds of the same breed that have slightly different type and you can see results, some good, some bad.

Breeding poultry is a true balancing act. You can mate two show winning birds that conform greatly to their breed standard and you are still going to wind up with offspring that look more like one parent or the other, birds that are WAY off breed standard, and you can get birds that exhibit traits that were not present in the parents at all. And if you're lucky, you might get one or two birds out of 20 or more offspring that actually might be show contenders. Birds that come close to their breed standard and are acceptable to show may not be the actual birds that you breed from, because you are constantly trying to balance the good traits and the flaws.

Breeding strictly for production is easier - you're simply looking at eggs or meat. If you try to breed a dual purpose bird, then it gets more complicated as you try to breed for good meat production without dropping your egg production at the same time. Throw in breeding for appearance traits too, and you've got a whole mess of other things to balance out and while you can emphasize one trait or another with each mating, if you completely neglect all the other traits you wind up with more problems.

Most newbies want to cross this and that to see what happens and they want to have everything just perfect and think they can learn it all by just reading. I know because that was me not too many years ago. But reality is that you first need to spend a year getting accustomed to the birds that you have, and all their little quirks, and how they respond to your husbandry techniques. You need the first year to make general observations and learn as much as you can about your breed. Historical research on your breed can give you a lot of insight on things you may see in your birds. Then when your birds are a year old, you can start making your mating selections and start hatching.

Then you raise those hatches for a year or more and make observations on what traits the offspring had and look at their parents to see how things turned out with your mating selections. After you have raised a few hatches all the way to maturity (at least a year and sometimes 2 years old), you have a much better idea of how your mating selections affect outcomes, which traits are seen more frequently and if they are seen in both genders or just one gender, and how your husbandry also plays into the development of the birds.

I know how much you want to try to understand everything right away and do things but you really need to get a handle on what your birds do with routine husbandry and mating to each other instead of trying to crossbreed right away. There is enough crazy recessive genes that you can see big variations in your birds depending on mating choices and the crapshoot of the dna strand coming together. You can make much better choices on any possible crossbreeding if you have a good understanding of what is already present in one breed. Things can pop up in birds that was never seen in the parents or in the grandparents or great grandparents. You just can't figure it out by reading and planning - it takes actually doing the mating selection and watching the offspring grow to maturity that will give you the best idea of what you're working with and how to proceed for meeting your flock goals.

 

[JRNash]

Thanks bnjrob.

 

[JRNash]

@bnjrob, one of the books I've read pretty much said exactly the same thing you did. I don't know why i started thinking about SOP when my original plan was utility birds. It's solid advice and it's appreciated

 

[ronott1]

True, but husbandry also plays a big part in how well a bird can handle their weather environment. I've seen this with Javas. There are Javas roasting in Texas heat & humidity, while they also do well in the drier heat of Arizona, and they also do well in the cold winters of Maine and Minnesota. Acclimating a bird to a drastically new environment may take a bit of extra work the first year if they are particularly sensitive to weather, but it can be done.

Husbandry can help for sure.

Still, Chanteclers will not do well in the heat. Along with dying, they will stop laying eggs. They have been bread for the long cold winters of Canada.

This is a review form the breed section:

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Chanteclers

Posted 2/21/14
By BantamFan4Life
Pros: Good layers, especially for winter.
Cons: Flighty, not good in hot weather.
Chanteclers are an okay breed. They are excellent in cold weather; as they come from frigid Canada. However, these birds do not do well in torrid, hot weather. They are fairly good layers, but they are flighty. If you are looking for a pet breed this isn't your breed ;]



I am fairly sure that Javas do much better in heat.

 

[bnjrob]

@bnjrob, one of the books I've read pretty much said exactly the same thing you did. I don't know why i started thinking about SOP when my original plan was utility birds. It's solid advice and it's appreciated

Utility is great and I think it's important. Utility was the reason my husband and I wanted poultry to start with. But then we learned about breed standards and we saw the differences between birds that came close to their breed standard and birds that didn't. And the birds that were closest to their breed standard were just so much more appealing to look at.

At poultry shows we saw Rhode Island Reds and Barred Rocks lined up and it was easy to tell the Standard-bred birds because even with individual small flaws, there was a symmetry to them that the rest of the birds didn't have. In fact, most of the non-standard bred birds didn't even look like each other, much less the ones that were close to the SOP. Their body shapes were all different, their coloring wasn't the same - they just didn't even look like they could be the same breed at all.

We also saw the difference between SOP breeding and utility breeding in our first year when we got Javas from two different breeders. We have Black Javas that look nice running around the yard and they lay a little bit better than our Mottled Javas. But they were bred by their previous owner for production, not the SOP. So when one of our Black Javas stands next to one of our Mottled Javas, you can't even tell they are the same breed even if you don't look at the difference in feather color. In fact, if you were to throw our Blacks into a group of other black feathered chickens, you would have no idea what breed they were at all if you weren't told they were Javas - they have a generic chicken silhouette. Our Black Javas just don't have the same majestic appearance that the Mottleds have because their type is off, their tail angle is off - they just don't look as good when standing next to a standard-bred bird. Our Mottleds have flaws, but there is more uniformity to the entire flock compared to our Blacks, and our Mottleds just have a much sharper appearance.

To me, I want the whole package. I want birds that are useful but also ones that I can look at and go "Wow, they look really nice". That may be why you are looking at things differently than when you first thought to get your chickens. It's ok to want strictly utilitarian birds, but if you enjoy a challenge and you want to be extra impressed with what you raise, then adding in that extra element of breeding to an appearance standard can give you that extra *something*.

 

[bnjrob]

Husbandry can help for sure.

Still, Chanteclers will not do well in the heat. Along with dying, they will stop laying eggs. They have been bread for the long cold winters of Canada.

This is a review form the breed section:

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Chanteclers

Posted 2/21/14
By BantamFan4Life
Pros: Good layers, especially for winter.
Cons: Flighty, not good in hot weather.
Chanteclers are an okay breed. They are excellent in cold weather; as they come from frigid Canada. However, these birds do not do well in torrid, hot weather. They are fairly good layers, but they are flighty. If you are looking for a pet breed this isn't your breed ;]

I am fairly sure that Javas do much better in heat.
Most Javas were bred and raised up north, NY/New England areas, back in the 1800s because they were made up of birds brought in on whaling ships and then later on from some merchant ships. The main bloodline from where most Javas in the country come from are up in Minnesota and have been there for 50+ years. One of the problems of modern day Javas is that their combs are deviating more from the SOP because in order to deal with the heat of the south, their combs have become larger than the standard calls for. Javas from Texas have gone to Maine and done quite well - foraging outside and laying even when the owner's cold-hardy birds were hiding in the barn to stay out of the snow and wind.

 

[JRNash]

Never thought about the comb dissipating heat. Makes sense.

 

[RiddleMe]

I'm really enjoying my white Chanteclers. I only got 2 breeding pairs from hatching eggs (and a couple culls), so I went ahead and bred them this year to get some numbers on the ground. But of my oldest chicks (5 1/2 months), the boys weigh right around 6 3/4 pounds and the girls are already pinking up. I'm pretty sure one has already laid her first pullet egg, although I can't swear to it since I have a number of layers in that pen. But I have caught her in the nesting boxes, so if not, then very soon.

Also, one my hens is just finishing her molt and did a good job blowing and regrowing feathers quickly. As an added bonus she also decided it would be the perfect time to go broody and raise a clutch of chicks. It was funny seeing a half naked hen leading chicks around, but nice that she found a job while not laying eggs.

 

[hellbender]

Husbandry can help for sure.

Still, Chanteclers will not do well in the heat. Along with dying, they will stop laying eggs. They have been bread for the long cold winters of Canada.

This is a review form the breed section:

​

​

Chanteclers

Posted 2/21/14
By BantamFan4Life
Pros: Good layers, especially for winter.
Cons: Flighty, not good in hot weather.
Chanteclers are an okay breed. They are excellent in cold weather; as they come from frigid Canada. However, these birds do not do well in torrid, hot weather. They are fairly good layers, but they are flighty. If you are looking for a pet breed this isn't your breed ;]

I am fairly sure that Javas do much better in heat.

Ron...You could have chosen almost anyone else's review. SOME folks write reviews who have never owned the breed(s) they are reviewing. No one is saying that the Chantecler is the best bird for hot weather....at least I didn't. But there are some very successful breeders in the hottest part of California and they show their birds all over the state and others in the area.

It gets fairly warm here in West Virginia but I've found that while they aren't the most heat tolerant birds I own, I have yet to have one in distress. Give it a rest.

PS...I personally don't think BantamFan4life owns/has owned 28 breeds of chickens. In fact, I think Brent is a high school student.