BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Mini Meat]

This is an interesting discussion.

Most that reject the concepts of alpha training outright tend to have concerns that are grounded in an ideology. They would often equate asserting ourselves as a negative, and somehow harmful to animals. I will admit that some carry it to far, but it would be easy to miss an important block in the foundation. It is foundational.

I agree that this can transfer to many parts of life. I am a firm believer in corporal punishment for children, and particularly young boys and men. I am convinced that someone has to be in charge. If we will not be, they will.

Now I am not referring to abusive behavior towards man or beast. I will put it this way. My sons are teenagers. It is has been years, probably 7-8 years since any physical contact has been necessary. And we enjoy a peaceful home. We are consistently complimented on our well mannered, behaved, and thoughtful young men. Even that much of that is in spite of me, much of it is due to being raised in a home that had expectations and accountability. They have been comfortable enough to flirt with the line here and there, but they knew by the sound of a voice where too far was. They also understood that I decided where the line should be. We never corrected for honest mistakes, but we dealt with matters of character head on and without fear. BUT, what makes all of this work is trust. I would absolutely never want to see a fearful dog or child. My boys need to be able to trust in how much they are loved. They need that assurance. It is necessary.

So to avoid communicating the other extreme, there needs to be a balance. Alpha training is not all of it. It is part of it. As we all would agree.

Bee, society in general views any difficulty as bad and to be avoided. We have forgotten that gold is refined in a fire. We want a problem free everything to include a problem free faith. We live in the health and wealth society. We want a health and wealth faith to. This is to say that this worldview envelopes everything. We live in a me first society, and therefore everything revolves around me. I am the center of my own universe. I am my own morality, and if something makes me uncomfortable, it is determined to be bad. So an extension of that view is that I do not want to make anyone else uncomfortable, even at the expense of that person or animal. We have lost our moral compass, and we have lost that clarity and certainty.

Another point we are missing in all of this is the hollowness that is inevitable when suffering, sorrow, and disappointment do finally come. When the harsh realities of life do come, we are consumed by them. Sun melts the ice, and it hardens the clay. Often what seams good is bad. Concerning my character, winning the lottery would be very bad. Also concerning my character, my house burning down and losing everything in it could be very good, if it brings me back to the things that do matter.
I am trying to describe what we have lost (as you know). We used to understand that correction was necessary and that it was good. That trials and temptations produced wisdom, character, and patience. But . . . . we also trusted. Trust is an essential piece. We have made it all about me, and eventually we see that me is not enough. Me cannot control everything in me's universe.

And Bee, I have noticed that these have trouble with all animals and people to. I see them foolishly thinking that their ideology really works in real life. LOL. They are so removed from reality, and self centered that they cannot see past their own nose. These are all online trying to understand the problem, and when you share the simple clear truth with them, they are offended. You become the bad guy, because it is more discomfort on top of discomfort. It is salt on an open wound.

As a people we are on a slippery slope. All it will take to destroy us is our own weight.

This speaks to one of my biggest grips about people today. A lack of firm, fair discipline. Weather dealing with dogs, horses, children or any creature in our care we have a responsibility to set boundaries and ENFORCE them. A failure to do so is doing them an injustice. They (or some innocent) will eventually pay the price for our failure. That price tends to be steep.

 

[cyborg]

I guess I'm a bad patient too. I went in for a major surgery 2 years ago, and while I was under, my brother liberated my shoes and wallet to ensure I would not leave before I was "officially" discharged. Imagine being stuck in a VA hospital over the 4th of July weekend, and not being able to get discharged because all the doctors took the weekend off.

 

[gjensen]

This speaks to one of my biggest grips about people today. A lack of firm, fair discipline. Weather dealing with dogs, horses, children or any creature in our care we have a responsibility to set boundaries and ENFORCE them. A failure to do so is doing them an injustice. They (or some innocent) will eventually pay the price for our failure. That price tends to be steep.

We condemn any violation of our perception of ourselves, or what makes us feel less significant etc. We view these things as offensive and wrong. As children we were raised to believe that we were the center of the universe, and any violation of that center is to be condemned. To rationalize how I can be the center of my universe and you think that you are the center of your universe, we must conclude that we are all the center of our universe. We are all gods of our own reality, and our standard morality is derived from within ourselves. We are our own standards, that may or may not be unique. Out of necessity, we conclude that there is no real standard for morality, and that each of us have our own. I do not want my own integrity violated, so I try not provoke yours. It is an insecure view. Ironically this even involves animals.

The word humane is to treat animals as humans. I believe we are to treat our subjects well, but I am reluctant to elevate them to the status of a human. That is what we do though. We see in their behavior human characteristics. So typical of our view, we do not want to violate their person. We see these ideologies finally fleshed out in the seemingly extremes of people deciding that they can be them, and then somewhere along the line be killed and eaten by them. We view these examples as extreme behavior not realizing that is the logical terminus of our worldview. It is only restrained by fear and experience.

These ideologies and belief systems are not standardized and they are not written. They are not laid out for full examination, and critique. Any challenge of these beliefs is reacted to with "this is what I believe". It does not take much pressing to see that they are their own standard, and therefore (in their own eyes) above reproach. This really is a religion, though it does not have a name. It is a sort of moralistic therapeutic deism with pagan and gnostic influences.

This belief system is not systematic, so it is not consistent. There are variations and hybrid blends. It is a new morality, but it is not new. It is old that has become new again. We have dealt with these errors before. Western society is not advancing, it is descending to the darkness from which it sprang.

 

[gjensen]

To encourage the discussion to get back on track, what have we grown to be winter feed for the birds?

Here we can have greens growing all year, less an unusual event.

Pumpkins and winter squashes store well. The meat is a good source of vitamins. The seeds, minerals and energy. I think these compliment the greens well. Pumpkins are a dime per
dozen after Halloween.

Sweet Potatoes are a good source of energy and vitamins, and are easy to store. So are potatoes, as long a they are steamed or boiled. Both of these can replace a substantial portion of grain, but they are lower in protein. It does take more protein to balance them

There is variation in the possibilities, but generally it is accepted that the greens etc. be 20-30% of the diet. More or less depending on the rest.

One thing the bagged feeds cannot provide is fresh greens or living plants. The winter squashes and greens would go a long ways towards keeping them sharp and fit through the dark days of winter while saving us a couple dollars. Both add color to the yolks to. Yellow to the legs of yellow legged breeds.

 

[DesertChic]

To encourage the discussion to get back on track, what have we grown to be winter feed for the birds?

Here we can have greens growing all year, less an unusual event.

Pumpkins and winter squashes store well. The meat is a good source of vitamins. The seeds, minerals and energy. I think these compliment the greens well. Pumpkins are a dime per
dozen after Halloween.

Sweet Potatoes are a good source of energy and vitamins, and are easy to store. So are potatoes, as long a they are steamed or boiled. Both of these can replace a substantial portion of grain, but they are lower in protein. It does take more protein to balance them

There is variation in the possibilities, but generally it is accepted that the greens etc. be 20-30% of the diet. More or less depending on the rest.

One thing the bagged feeds cannot provide is fresh greens or living plants. The winter squashes and greens would go a long ways towards keeping them sharp and fit through the dark days of winter while saving us a couple dollars. Both add color to the yolks to. Yellow to the legs of yellow legged breeds.

I planted more kale and Swiss Chard for them to eat this winter, but so far it hasn't sprouted and I'm wondering if the seeds were too old or something. I also sprout seeds throughout the winter for them, though now that my flocks have grown so large I'll have to invest in larger sprouting trays. And thanks to an older discussion you participated in regarding this very topic, I'm going to buy up leftover pumpkins after Halloween and see if my birds take to them.

We are luckily having a very wet year here in AZ so our "green season" has been extended well past the normal cutoff date. I've been allowing small, manageable groups of my birds into my raised bed garden area daily to help control the overgrowth of grass there. They're doing all of my weeding for me!

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

@gevshiba and @NanaKat You're photos are making me want to have a cow.

Temptation, get thee behind me!!!!!

- Ant Farm

 

[gjensen]

I planted more kale and Swiss Chard for them to eat this winter, but so far it hasn't sprouted and I'm wondering if the seeds were too old or something. I also sprout seeds throughout the winter for them, though now that my flocks have grown so large I'll have to invest in larger sprouting trays. And thanks to an older discussion you participated in regarding this very topic, I'm going to buy up leftover pumpkins after Halloween and see if my birds take to them.

We are luckily having a very wet year here in AZ so our "green season" has been extended well past the normal cutoff date. I've been allowing small, manageable groups of my birds into my raised bed garden area daily to help control the overgrowth of grass there. They're doing all of my weeding for me!

It would seam that you could grow greens in beds throughout the winter?

Rape is more tolerant of heat and warm soils than what you mentioned. Here, I can get more for the dollar growing it. I grow it to full height, and cut and carry. I do not know what it would cost for you to get the seed etc. It is a more economical "field crop", over a "garden vegetable".

I do like to grow turnips. Once I am out of pumpkins and winter squash, I turn to turnips. I impale them on a nail with the tops in the house. I replace them as necessary. It gives them something to peck at on the coldest days.

I noticed that your area was seeing more rain than what is typical. It made me long to visit. I love how it smells in the desert before and after a rain.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

To encourage the discussion to get back on track, what have we grown to be winter feed for the birds?

Here we can have greens growing all year, less an unusual event.

Pumpkins and winter squashes store well. The meat is a good source of vitamins. The seeds, minerals and energy. I think these compliment the greens well. Pumpkins are a dime per
dozen after Halloween.

Sweet Potatoes are a good source of energy and vitamins, and are easy to store. So are potatoes, as long a they are steamed or boiled. Both of these can replace a substantial portion of grain, but they are lower in protein. It does take more protein to balance them

There is variation in the possibilities, but generally it is accepted that the greens etc. be 20-30% of the diet. More or less depending on the rest.

One thing the bagged feeds cannot provide is fresh greens or living plants. The winter squashes and greens would go a long ways towards keeping them sharp and fit through the dark days of winter while saving us a couple dollars. Both add color to the yolks to. Yellow to the legs of yellow legged breeds.

I have sweet potatoes for my chickens (grew many more than I needed for myself this summer) - will harvest this week or weekend some time. What suggestions do you have for balancing the protein? The meat flock littles are still on Flock raiser (20%) mixed with a locally milled chick starter (also 20%) at 6 weeks. The POL pullets (picky eaters) are in Layena Plus, but the (younger) cockerel is almost done with his quarantine (17 wks old). so I may have some of his Flock raiser in with the Layena in the coop once he joins the girls.

I have some seeds for poultry forage that I ordered on the internet that I will spread/plant this week (finally cool enough, with some rain this week). But there's another local seed company with more local forage seed mixes (for poultry, esp. turkeys on ranches), and also various cover crops (and clover). That sort of a longer term plan, as that will take some time. I was hoping to grow Thousand-head kale this winter if I can find the seeds - a productive variety grown for forage. My garden has taken a back seat to coop construction, so the garden won't be as well planned/ developed this year, but I should be able to get some good stuff in. (This is prime growing season for us here.)

I might grow some flats of forage seeds to put in the coops intermittently (taking out to let regrow) in the meanwhile - might be nice, if I can rig a screen/HW cloth over the top to keep them from decimating the roots. I was sprouting wheat grass for them earlier, but when it got really hot, I started having mold issues and stopped. Now that it's cooler, I'll start again, at least for my "pet" layers, and maybe as an intermittent treat for the little meaties (I'm used to sprouting, so it's an easy habit for me).

- Ant Farm

 

[NanaKat]

Sweet potatoes and pumpkins are standard winter feed here. Church and community pumpkin sales are a nice resource here. We were contacted a few years ago to help a church remove the unsold pumpkin crop from their playground....for the pumpkins. Next year the pumpkins came up everywhere we fed the cattle chopped pumpkin. My birds actually glowed that winter. I canned 100 quarts and still have a lot for feeding out this year.

We also plant turnips, collards, kale and rape. I freeze things like shredded Sugar snap pea hulls in quart bags. I thaw these in winter and distribute to the pens. (Also a nice summer treat if given while still frozen) The chickens free range out to the fescue pastures too.

A head of cabbage in a metal mesh bag is good entertainment for the birds when we are snowed in. Another winter treat is shredded carrots, cucumber and squash. I sometimes freeze the extra produce this way for the birds. Chicken love the zuchini shreds
YEP, I have a freezer designated "For the Birds".
We make our own sauerkraut and the birds sometimes get a jar or at least the leftovers.
Excess orchard fruit is dehydrated and can be reconstituted for the flock...apples, plums, maybe peaches. Dehydrated and vacuum sealed in bags to save storage space. Grandkids love dried fruits too.

 

[hellbender]

Dad will be released or evicted on Friday 23 provided he gets the okay from the medical staff after rounds on Thursday. Getting discharged from any hospital requires a ton of paperwork and it is not likely they will be out of the facility before well into the afternoon on Friday. The plan is for dad and Jason to stay at the hotel Friday night and leave out of NYC by mid morning on Saturday.

Ariel