BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I read on here a lot about people with breeding programs geared toward maximizing carcass traits. Most of my chicken experience has been in raising pullets to point of lay and selling them in town where people can't raise straight run and have roosters or can't have but so many, excluding most minimum orders from hatcheries. I generally butchered the roosters myself or sold them at a discount for meat. I will share some knowledge I have gained from being in a cow calf beef operation for several decades.

Hybrid vigor is a real thing, it's the closest thing you will get to free pounds. There are limitations to this. If you cross breed A and breed B, there is hybrid vigor to be had. The more dissimilar and unrelated those breeds are, the more hybrid vigor is available. In other words, there is probably more hybrid vigor to be had in a Shamo Orpington cross than in a White Rock Barred Rock cross. There is such a thing as maternal hybrid vigor. This means that, say a brood cow, will have hybrid vigor that will give her a boost, she will be more hardy and produce more milk for the same feed input and this will help her offspring. She can be a cross of two of what are considered maternal breeds and then she can be crossed on a "terminal" breed known for carcass traits, (if care is taken to make sure the terminal sire doesn't throw offspring too large for her to have.) This might not have much impact on the chickens size, as chickens don't give milk, although most game breeders that are looking for size use two year old hens to make sure the egg is going to be nice and big and throw big chicks to give them a little head start. Where maternal hybrid vigor might come into play is more eggs to set, all other things being equal, a hybrid hen should be slightly more productive as she should be more hardy.

Beyond a three way cross, there are actually studies on cattle showing that hybrid vigor starts to be less evident. Also, when using composite breeds and crossing onto breeds that are components of that composite. At some point hybrid vigor can turn into "mutt regression" it would seem. Consider if you are using hatchery birds that are, let's say hatchery RIR and crossing them on hatchery BO that are just hatchery RIR with buff color added. There will be less on the table than if using a pure line of each from a breeder. There is a certain amount of hybrid vigor to be had from crossing two pure inbred lines of the same breed. If you are making an 8 way cross, there might not be as much hybrid vigor to be had compared to making two 4 way crosses and linebreeding them and selecting them to aworking standard of uniformity, and then crossing those two lines to produce your meat birds. Or maybe just sticking to a two way cross.


Likewise, when making your composite breed, don't guage your success until the hybrid vigor wave has run out several generations into your breeding program. If breed A and breed B are crossed the offspring should be bigger than either parent, it happened because of hybrid vigor and not because of your brilliance in combining those two or three lines. When you get several generations in, this size boost COULD disappear. If you cross a big breed with a small breed, you can select the biggest offspring with the desired traits of the smaller parent and breed them back to each other until those traits are stabilized, but that is selective breeding.

It seems the active goal of many is to have a self sustaining flock that produces fast growing roosters, The benefits of hybrid vigor can be lost in trying to produce one line of birds with all of the production traits you want. It might be better to buy pure hens and a different breed rooster, and once you have cross bred hens, buy a different rooster of a third breed and then sell off the three way cross hens and start new with pure hens. I know this goes against the idea of in house self sustainability, but something to ponder.

Just thought I would add some things for prospective backyard producers to mull over.

There are a lot of interesting points and ideas in this post. Much is true, and much just sounds good.

To stay grounded, we should always keep our mind on the fact that improvement cannot be had without some form of line breeding. A successful cross is the cross of well bred line bred birds. There is no way around that.

The tendency is to think that a cross is always better, which is not remotely true. Not all crosses nick, and not all crosses compliment each other well. Then the lasting benefits of hybrid vigor is very fleeting in a small flock. A generation or two later, and it is as if there was no cross. It is a dead end, where line breeding (well and smartly done), can provide long, lasting, and steady improvement.

All of the crossing that the commercial industry has done, is the crossing of tightly bred strains. The results is a terminal generation. These bred to themselves will not likely produce fowl as good as their parents.

It is the crossing of tightly bred superior strains (not necessarily breeds) that has potential. Everything necessary has to be represented, and preferably, on both sides. Then one cross is better or worse than another. Even with superior individuals, not all crosses are superior. They have to be proven.

Well bred birds of uniform characteristics is the foundation of all that is good in production poultry. You cannot have productive poultry without them. Loosely bred birds from haphazard crossing is the most secure method to heading the wrong way.

 

[varidgerunner]

The point I left out, selective breeding can be more powerful in the right hands than hybrid vigor in the wrong hands. It seems like a lot of chicken people that start into a breed will try to get stock from multiple breeders, and then cross them together. They will have great short term success with this strategy, the small boost from hybrid vigor from the crossing of unrelated family lines will make for some outstanding individuals. What can happen later, is that all of the flaws in all of those lines can come forth in the same offspring. They can usually fix this by going out and buying a third or fourth unrelated line. Quick fix that could compound problems

The proper way to rally the genetics of a bottlenecked line is not to go out and buy a herdsire from a different line and cross him on all of your females, if you want to control what is going in, go out and aquire new blood and cross him on your best female, then keep a herdsire out of her. Or maybe even keep one of her grandsons. That way you are adding new genetics, but only at a fraction. Making a complete outcross can radically transform a line possibly destroy it.

The commercial industry uses hybrid vigor only in a terminal cross situation, and they don't buy any old white cornish and any old rock from the nearest hatchery or feedstore to do it. These lines are intensively linebred and carefully maintained. I once read, and don't remember now where, someone was having a conversation with an industry person, and they stated that the birds they were using were intensively line bred. The person, a show person I believe, asked them where they went when they needed to make an outcross. Their response was that they hadn't needed to at that point. Keep in mind that this line had been in existence for several decades. The need for "new blood" is often confused with the need for better selection criteria.

 

[gjensen]

Anybody that has done any real line breeding will not commit their work to a new bird etc. There is too much at stake. If inbreeding does become a concern, a side mating is often used with the new animal. Then it is not unusual to work them in on the female side, topping them with an original male. It is less risky.

There is always the danger of dismantling all that we have put together. There is a lot of sweat, dollars, and thought in anything worth anything. Anyone that has that kind of commitment will not risk their own readily.

Half of the battle, breeding, is not to go backwards. First do no harm.

 

[varidgerunner]

I have a line of sheep that I've had since the 1980's. They are intensively linebred. there are many selection criteria that have gone into them, enough milk, but not too much, good mothering instinct, growth, parasite resistance, conformation, longevity, etc. I have worked very hard to get them where they are. I had a ewe that made it to 19, raised lambs every year. I kept a son out of her, and bred it back to her and used the resulting ram as a herdsire for many years. I know markers to look for, when I need to go one way or another with the breeding program. Once you are there, then it is unthinkable to cross in an unknown. Putting something in is way easier than taking something out. There is great value in being able to predict things about your stock. When you put a bunch of breeds in a blender and pour them out, all you can really predict is unpredictability itself. But at the end of the day, you aren't going to kill your hens by making a cross that causes them to die during egg laying, half of them will probably lay eggs, all of them will make soup and you can get more of just about any of them shipped to the post office. Doesn't take too long to get another generation coming on either. Cows take 9 months in the incubator

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
That's my thinking as well. There's a line of WRs that was suggested to me because they have good conformation but they don't lay until much later than I am shooting for and they don't look much different than my own pullets, so I'm thinking I would be taking a big step back to even try them. I think I'll play with my own blocks for awhile until I feel like I've gone as far as I can possibly go with what I have and can do no better in that direction. Who knows how long that will take, so I'm settling in to have some fun with my own toys for awhile....don't need to think about all that other stuff for a long time.

 

[bnjrob]

The point I left out, selective breeding can be more powerful in the right hands than hybrid vigor in the wrong hands. It seems like a lot of chicken people that start into a breed will try to get stock from multiple breeders, and then cross them together. They will have great short term success with this strategy, the small boost from hybrid vigor from the crossing of unrelated family lines will make for some outstanding individuals. What can happen later, is that all of the flaws in all of those lines can come forth in the same offspring. They can usually fix this by going out and buying a third or fourth unrelated line. Quick fix that could compound problems

This must be something that is on the internet that people are reading because I've had too many people contact me in the last few years who are trying to get their hands on birds from multiple breeders. They've told me that they have to do this because they aren't supposed to be breeding poultry that are related to each other in any way. Somewhere out there, maybe even on this site, someone is telling people that they should be crossing multiple strains of birds together in order to get fabulous birds and they are believing it.

 

[varidgerunner]

It is human nature at work. Everybody thinks that some old breeder that hasn't made an outcross in twenty years is some kind of backwards rube. They think that thanks to their genius abilities and legendary use of the internet, they can cross four lines from four different parts of the country and they will have something better than any of the stock they started with and therefore more valuable. For the sanctity of breeds and the preservation of traits, pen and paper was a much better form of communication. Gave people a chance to think things through before potentially ruining their stock.

 

[gjensen]

That's my thinking as well. There's a line of WRs that was suggested to me because they have good conformation but they don't lay until much later than I am shooting for and they don't look much different than my own pullets, so I'm thinking I would be taking a big step back to even try them. I think I'll play with my own blocks for awhile until I feel like I've gone as far as I can possibly go with what I have and can do no better in that direction. Who knows how long that will take, so I'm settling in to have some fun with my own toys for awhile....don't need to think about all that other stuff for a long time.

It is easier said than done, certainly.

There is flexibility in side pens. You can have your main effort, and minor efforts on the side. Remember that. It allows a breeding program to have some flexibility without risking an entire flock.

Sometimes, it is time to stir the pot. Some of these rebuilding efforts are tearing them down to build them back up again. Sometimes, it takes making a mess to clean up a mess. Every now and then, we have to simply roll up our sleeves and go to work.

The above would sum up my efforts with my Catalanas. I am rebuilding them. They need it. I am finally producing some birds that I can use. Out of caution and preservation, I have the originals "pure". So, I have my two main efforts. Then I try and use pairing up some birds on the side.
The originals are too closely bred. I will use a project bird to invigorate them. The project line has been repeatedly bred back to the originals. They will again, at least, this coming season.

The point behind all of this, do what you feel that you have to.

What are the results from simply crossing them? The next generation from the simple cross will be all over the place, but is that bad? Good and bad.

I really feel that going 3/4 on the exhibition strain is the way to go. It is very hard to build the conformation and regain the appropriate size. The 1/4 hatchery strain will give enough variability to select good layers, and fast growers. The trick is to hatch enough that you can select birds that have the best of both worlds. Breeding them, and then breeding back to what your best might be. Always looking to gain some control over the direction.

Some days, I get discouraged and think that they will never get there. Then others, I am happy with the progress. The truth is in the middle. Given the variability, the truth is the average. I am excited about a few individuals, and discouraged by the other extreme. It all depends on what my focus is. But, I use the superior individuals. That is the direction that I am going.

We make backwards steps. Problems do come up. That is part of the fun though. The challenge, and the figuring it out. And we make steps forward to. More of these than the other.

This is why preserving some of these old lines is so important. Some of them represent decades and decades of very thoughtful breeding. Once we get to actual breeding, we begin to appreciate what goes in it, and why preserving it matters. For example, Bee works for the next 20 years building a utility strain with good color and type. They are unique, and a real contribution to the breed. To poultry in general. Who will pick the strain up and continue to move it forward from there? Should it be lost to time?

The fun in all of this is the rolling up our sleeves and doing it. Learning how, and having an actual defined goal. There is an actual need for utility strains of breeds that have good type and reasonable color. This is a unique niche that no one is trying to fill.

Out of the desire to be different, everyone is the same.

 

[gjensen]

It is human nature at work. Everybody thinks that some old breeder that hasn't made an outcross in twenty years is some kind of backwards rube. They think that thanks to their genius abilities and legendary use of the internet, they can cross four lines from four different parts of the country and they will have something better than any of the stock they started with and therefore more valuable. For the sanctity of breeds and the preservation of traits, pen and paper was a much better form of communication. Gave people a chance to think things through before potentially ruining their stock.

We gain an appreciation for what it takes when we have had a set of our own experiences. We can tell who has no experience by their haphazard approach.

 

[bnjrob]

It is human nature at work. Everybody thinks that some old breeder that hasn't made an outcross in twenty years is some kind of backwards rube. They think that thanks to their genius abilities and legendary use of the internet, they can cross four lines from four different parts of the country and they will have something better than any of the stock they started with and therefore more valuable. For the sanctity of breeds and the preservation of traits, pen and paper was a much better form of communication. Gave people a chance to think things through before potentially ruining their stock.

We keep a lot more breeder birds than most folks do, to try to avoid narrowing down the genetics pool too much, too fast. There is only about 3 strains of our chicken breed left in the country that date back farther than about 10-15 years. We've got two of the strains and keep 3 different cocks for each strain. It's a pain in the butt to have so many pens, but I'd rather do that, than start seeing a lot of congenital problems cropping up in just a few years. I've seen that poultry can take more inbreeding than other animals, but I'd still like to make sure we keep as much diversity as we can. Which means improving traits is really slow going but we have seen improvement in just a few years, so I'm ok with continuing to go slow. I may eventually cross the strains, one strain is currently lousy layers compared to the other, but I'm still trying to give them a chance. And if I do cross the strains, I will still continue to keep separate bloodlines in addition to the crossed one. Since so few folks keep the kind of chickens we do, so there isn't a lot of info out there about breeding them, it has been very helpful to see the differences in the bloodlines as well as the groups with different sires, to compare them and learn.