BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

Depth should always be a concern. We have to maintain a flock that is deep enough. We have to hatch enough to maintain that depth.

Selecting vigorous individuals is the number one priority. Even with seemingly appropriate depth, selection can ruin them alone. Health and vigor is priority number one. It is impossible to understate this. If some of our best males is not also some of our mot vigorous males, then we are not hatching enough.

There is variability in the qty. that we hatch. That variability is our genetic depth. Some of this is seen, and some of it is hidden.

This point has been debated here, but it was never understood. This genetic depth is insurance. We try to preserve our efforts. A necessary outcross is added risk.

Many cannot hatch hundreds etc. If they can only hatch 40, then hatching a family at a time is possible. One in the spring, another in the fall, another the next spring etc. There are many possibilities, but not maintaining depth is not one of the possibilities.

The side mating contributes to depth. I believe in them for a number of reasons.

How many is deep enough? That could be debated from here until the end of time. 4 cocks and 16 hens may be deep enough. 3 cocks, and 24 hens may be deep enough. These are minimums. How many families? Two at least, maybe 3, 4, or even 5. This is to maintain a single strain. Multiple strains require multiple similar efforts.

A utility flock needs to be vigorous. Bringing in new birds through side mating is inevitable. When it becomes absolutely necessary, then caution is the rule. It will take a generation or two to even get it added in. Looking ahead is important.

If the above numbers sound unrealistic, bantams are an option. They really are. Some are good layers, and they grow fast.

Poultry tolerates a remarkable amount of inbreeding. It takes an awful lot of inbreeding to see any abnormalities creep in. Egg laying, poor gains etc. is what we see go first. Someone that knows their birds can see it long before physical abnormalities creep in. It is an awfully mall flock that is already inbred that will see any problems in the near future.

 

[Our Roost]

This discussion has me in awe when I look at the depressing results of my efforts. Working with birds that are already in a rare state and needing rejuvination is definitely a challenge. Having insufficient numbers is pretty critical.You pool your thoughts from mentors who are supposed to be in the know and find that there is really no perfect recipe to resurrect your specialty breeds or even heritage breeds. Interjecting fresh blood from another strain can be a temporary quick fix but the longevity soon wears off and the battle continues. Yes, inbreeding is to me the main issue with longevity. More birds, less issues, less birds, bigger issues over a shorter period of time. In my opinion, you have to have enough stock to rotate on a slated basis to keep constants in check. Anything less and over time you are going to see a breakdown in both vigor and quality. I prefer utility breeding verses show quality breeding.

 

[ronott1]

This discussion has me in awe when I look at the depressing results of my efforts. Working with birds that are already in a rare state and needing rejuvination is definitely a challenge. Having insufficient numbers is pretty critical.You pool your thoughts from mentors who are supposed to be in the know and find that there is really no perfect recipe to resurrect your specialty breeds or even heritage breeds. Interjecting fresh blood from another strain can be a temporary quick fix but the longevity soon wears off and the battle continues. Yes, inbreeding is to me the main issue with longevity. More birds, less issues, less birds, bigger issues over a shorter period of time. In my opinion, you have to have enough stock to rotate on a slated basis to keep constants in check. Anything less and over time you are going to see a breakdown in both vigor and quality. I prefer utility breeding verses show quality breeding.

Yellowhouse farm was successful with inbreeding his white dorkings. What he did was hatch a lot and cull very hard. You might need to hatch out 200 and only keep three for several years but it can be done and is better than trying to mix lines.

Chicken genetics are not like human genetics.

 

[bnjrob]

This discussion has me in awe when I look at the depressing results of my efforts. Working with birds that are already in a rare state and needing rejuvination is definitely a challenge. Having insufficient numbers is pretty critical.You pool your thoughts from mentors who are supposed to be in the know and find that there is really no perfect recipe to resurrect your specialty breeds or even heritage breeds. Interjecting fresh blood from another strain can be a temporary quick fix but the longevity soon wears off and the battle continues. Yes, inbreeding is to me the main issue with longevity. More birds, less issues, less birds, bigger issues over a shorter period of time. In my opinion, you have to have enough stock to rotate on a slated basis to keep constants in check. Anything less and over time you are going to see a breakdown in both vigor and quality. I prefer utility breeding verses show quality breeding.

I think when you are newly undertaking the breeding of a rare breed/bloodline, the first priority really should be getting more birds on the ground. If something happens to the small flock before you have backups, you're screwed. With our more rare bloodline, getting more on the ground is a higher priority than culling for all but the most heinous defects at this point. Once you have more to work with, then you can do heavier culling for selective traits.

You have to like your birds enough to keep plugging away even when the improvement is very small. And you get yourself excited for any improvement at all - otherwise you might get too depressed and quit.

 

[dfr1973]

You have to like your birds enough to keep plugging away

I still feel a bit of pride and joy watching my rooster (cock-bird) Feyd strutting around the enclosure and shining in the sunlight. He is the one I bought as a hatchling chick from Tractor Supply Company ... the employees were not sure which hatchery he was from as they got stock from three that spring. He really is such a beautiful boy. He is also the reason I am starting out working with a patterned variety of a breed, instead of the usual solid white (or maybe solid black). In a couple generations, I want to have "new and improved" versions of him in each of my breeding tractors, along with some fine female complements-counterparts. I know Feyd has a good amount of flesh on his frame, not only by looking but by feeling when I move him. I also know from his test breeding sons that he can throw a meaty bird as well. Lemme find the pic of Feyd's son Brother, roasted to perfection. Despite his good size, he only made a total of four meals because hubby sat there on the second night until he picked the bones clean.

We'll be eating a lot of chicken the next few years, as I hatch a lot, but keep few until I find some that are worthy of starting a linebreeding program with. I've accepted that I am doing things the hard way, but like knitting my own socks or baking my own bread, sometimes the hard way is better in the long run.

 

[varidgerunner]

Better to keep two that re right tan 200 that aren't. The biggest thing you can do to add depth is to learn from the gamefowl people. Keep more cocks and single mate. When you keep a bunch of hens and breed to one cock you are compounding his genetics Many gamefowl are intensively linebred, often with small numbers on hand, must not hurt tem too much because they live incredibly long. They have been selected very rigorously, and single mated.

Keeping inferior birds for the sake of numbers is what can doom a line. Unless their fault is jus a simple matter of color or comb style or something insignificant like that.

 

[DesertChic]

Better to keep two that re right tan 200 that aren't. The biggest thing you can do to add depth is to learn from the gamefowl people. Keep more cocks and single mate. When you keep a bunch of hens and breed to one cock you are compounding his genetics Many gamefowl are intensively linebred, often with small numbers on hand, must not hurt tem too much because they live incredibly long. They have been selected very rigorously, and single mated.

Keeping inferior birds for the sake of numbers is what can doom a line. Unless their fault is jus a simple matter of color or comb style or something insignificant like that.

Phew! So I'm NOT entirely crazy for doing this. I seem to have a 'special talent' for hatching unusually high number of cockerels, which is great for keeping my freezer stocked, but requires that I make some tough choices about which to keep as breeders. I tend to err on the side of caution and grow out more than I probably should....and more than my sanity prefers...just to make sure I'm able to breed for the attributes I favor. I've read so many discussions of people keeping only one, two, or at the most three cockerels for breeding. Well.....I've got considerably more than that.

 

[Our Roost]

More numbers yes! So when you start with just a handful of birds that lay an egg every other day, don't expect many on the ground your first year. Keep in mind that only a select number of these will be suitable for breeding stock the following season. And so goes the game.

 

[bnjrob]

More numbers yes! So when you start with just a handful of birds that lay an egg every other day, don't expect many on the ground your first year. Keep in mind that only a select number of these will be suitable for breeding stock the following season. And so goes the game.

That is exactly how our stuff goes. Ours do not lay every day and they go broody a lot, so it definitely cuts down on the numbers of eggs available for hatching. Since we hatch from multiple cocks in each bloodline, we alternate years in hatching from different sires - otherwise we would not have enough room for them all.

Right now we have two groups of juveniles hatched from the same parents this year. The older ones are 5 months old and soon we'll pick the best two cockerels out of the group and butcher the rest. Then we'll wait for the younger cockerels to catch up in size, pick the best couple of them, then let them grow out to match the older group. Once they have all grown out enough to be able compare older to younger, we'll go through again and pick the one cockerel that meets the breeding needs.

The pullets we will cull for obvious defects but because most of our pullets of different ages usually get along ok in the same grow out pen, we'll wait to cull through the pullets for more specific, nitpicky traits until the younger ones have caught up with the older ones and can be compared to each other, then we'll pick the best - usually two to three of them depending on what traits we're seeing and what traits we need to balance between the males and females.

Of course with both genders we always watch them all along for either really good traits or undesirable traits. With our one bloodline we are finally able to start putting a little more emphasis on earlier maturing. You can't totally neglect a trait when you're breeding, but you can choose where to put the varying degrees of emphasis, based on what is going on in the flock.

I've seen too many people get set so far back because they culled too heavily to start with and didn't have backup breeders and lost birds. If the birds are easily replaceable, that works fine, but if you can't just go to the store and get more, making sure to have backups is so important. Even if they are the junior varsity team, the genetics is still there so you won't lose everything if you lose birds. We have far more birds than what we breed with but having more of them alive *just in case* makes it easier to do the culling of the first string birds and still have a safety net.

 

[gjensen]

Depth is necessary. It is learned one way or the other. The hard way later, maybe.

More males does help, but not if it limits the qty. of females entirely. A female contributes equally.

Quality is always over quantity. But that is not saying that quantity is not relevant.

There is a lot to be learned from the old cockers. We cannot copy them precisely however. We are in a different game. We should know enough to adapt what is useful. I will say that I have learned from them more than any other. The good old breeders will also preach depth.

Joseph (yellow house farms) ran 20+ hens and 4 and 5 males and still hatched large quantities. That is a reasonable number for a semi sustainable breeder flock.