BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I'm going to digress for a moment from the pure topic of "production-eggs-and-or meat", but I promise I'll bring it all back round in a minute. Prior to WWII chickens were integral to most human societies. Of course there were exceptions in extreme areas like the Inuit people in the Arctic, and isolated islands where chickens never arrived, etc. but for the most part Gallus gallus cleaned up our trash, ate our pests, and provided cheap little packages of protein to keep our children growing healthily. That all changed in the US and other developed nations after the war with the rise of suburbia and a desire to protect our homes' values by keeping "trashy chicken people" out of our subdivisions. The result was a culture void of chickens and chicken knowledge. That has radically changed in the last few years. People have become chicken crazy, and I love it. I live in a fairly affluent Atlanta suburb where chickens have been VERBOTEN until just a few months ago. Today people across America are fighting to get birds back in their yards, and my county now allows most people to keep three hens. But no one has any idea what to do with those hens. Every neighborhood used to have a chicken guy/gal where you could get answers to your questions and buy a few good laying hens. Where is he/she now? He/she is in this group. Knowledge is being shared and and chicken husbandry is returning to our neighborhoods. Dare I hope that subdivisions are becoming neighborhoods again? The people in this group are more than hobbyists... they are leaders in a social movement to bring back part of our heritage... a heritage grounded in sustainability and local community. That path to that leadership takes us thru learning all we can about producing better meat and egg chickens. I'm thrilled to be learning from you all.

Anthony

Anthony, you have an optimistic view. That is commendable.

You have a pretty good sense of poultry evolution in modern times.

My view is not as optimistic as your own. It is optimistic, but not as optimistic. I see the vast majority of the new poultry interest rooted in baby boomers that are middle to upper middle class, and it has become more of a "My Pet Chicken" event. The group on this thread does not fit in with the majority.

Now I am not lumping everyone in the same group. There is a nicely represented variety of people represented in the new interest in keeping poultry. I am only saying that the "MY Pet Chicken" crowd is the largest group. This group is a here today, and gone tomorrow crowd. In other words, their interest will wane in time. It has become a fad. In America, we have the luxury of entertaining ourselves with what would be essential somewhere else.

And much of it amounts to nothing at all, but chatter.

Where I am optimistic, is the expectation that out of this boom of interest, there will be some that become genuine poultry men and women. Breeders of poultry that make actual contributions to the continuation of a poultry heritage in America. America has a rich history of poultry keeping and breeding. And I want to emphasize the second. Breeding.

Keepers are consumers. Breeders are contributors. I hope that some make actual contributions. I hope that I do. I have found my own unique niche, and I am making progress. We will see if my efforts amount to anything in time. Maybe they will, and maybe they will not.

Perhaps Bee's White Rocks will be a contribution. There are no pure utility strains that have good type and color. I would rather have respectable Rocks that performed than to win 1st place at the Nationals with a bird that did not. I am not knocking the second. There is room and a need for both. I am only remarking on my own preference.

There is an actual need for birds that represented their breed well and performed well. Where are these? There are none. Or, very few. This could be an actual contribution by some here. Bee is working with Rocks, and Bjnrob (sp?) is working with Javas. Angela is working with Wyandottes. They are all interested in having good birds that performed well. I am giving it a go with Catalanas, and I promise that they will perform reasonably well. I have a special interest in NHs, and am considering making them a big project.

I say all of this to say that we have plenty of keepers. What we need is actual breeders. The title of this thread is Breeding for . . . etc. Again, hopefully from this boom in interest, breeders (contributors) will come.

 

[gjensen]

I've learned a lot from you, so I want to make sure to thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have to admit that until recently I'd never even thought about chicken longevity 4+ years out. Up until finding the BYC, everyone nearby I'd spoken to about chickens insisted that you MUST replace all of them once they're two years old, but could never explain why. It's refreshing to have so many words of wisdom to refer to here and to know that there's no reason why I can't hold on to a good reliable hen for as long as she's healthy and productive.

I see it the same way as you have been told. I will replace my production birds in their second year. There is an all in and out occurring here every year. I aim to keep the best second year birds though. They are moved to new ground. My older breeders come from the "producing birds". That is my mindset. That is not how I operate precisely, but this is how I am set up, and this is how I think.

I will use my best birds until they are no longer practically functional, they are replaced with better birds, or they die. Whichever comes first.

You want to "hold on to a good reliable hen for as long as she is healthy and productive" (your words). Vigor, health, and longevity is priority number one. What good are birds that are good, but are gone tomorrow?

An old adage is youth on one side, when breeding old birds. An old cock with pullets or one year old hens. An old hen with a cockerel or one year old cock. You will find that you get more viable eggs this way. An old hen paired with an old cock will give you less viable eggs. So when using the oldest birds, remember, youth on one side.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

I'm going to digress for a moment from the pure topic of "production-eggs-and-or meat", but I promise I'll bring it all back round in a minute. Prior to WWII chickens were integral to most human societies. Of course there were exceptions in extreme areas like the Inuit people in the Arctic, and isolated islands where chickens never arrived, etc. but for the most part Gallus gallus cleaned up our trash, ate our pests, and provided cheap little packages of protein to keep our children growing healthily. That all changed in the US and other developed nations after the war with the rise of suburbia and a desire to protect our homes' values by keeping "trashy chicken people" out of our subdivisions. The result was a culture void of chickens and chicken knowledge. That has radically changed in the last few years. People have become chicken crazy, and I love it. I live in a fairly affluent Atlanta suburb where chickens have been VERBOTEN until just a few months ago. Today people across America are fighting to get birds back in their yards, and my county now allows most people to keep three hens. But no one has any idea what to do with those hens. Every neighborhood used to have a chicken guy/gal where you could get answers to your questions and buy a few good laying hens. Where is he/she now? He/she is in this group. Knowledge is being shared and and chicken husbandry is returning to our neighborhoods. Dare I hope that subdivisions are becoming neighborhoods again? The people in this group are more than hobbyists... they are leaders in a social movement to bring back part of our heritage... a heritage grounded in sustainability and local community. That path to that leadership takes us thru learning all we can about producing better meat and egg chickens. I'm thrilled to be learning from you all.

Anthony

Right on. I gave three of my hatchery New Hampshire pullets (that I might have otherwise culled) to someone to start her little laying flock. Helped her set up her coop, etc. I felt like I was doing a good thing.

- Ant Farm

 

[DesertChic]

Totally! I sometimes wonder why I have so many tools. Then I look at what I've built and what I still have yet to build (and also consider the enormous time and sometimes injury from doing it the hard way), and then I don't wonder any more...

- Ant Farm

My wood shop is almost as big as my house. Now if I only had more time to spend there.....

 

[DesertChic]

I'm going to digress for a moment from the pure topic of "production-eggs-and-or meat", but I promise I'll bring it all back round in a minute. Prior to WWII chickens were integral to most human societies. Of course there were exceptions in extreme areas like the Inuit people in the Arctic, and isolated islands where chickens never arrived, etc. but for the most part Gallus gallus cleaned up our trash, ate our pests, and provided cheap little packages of protein to keep our children growing healthily. That all changed in the US and other developed nations after the war with the rise of suburbia and a desire to protect our homes' values by keeping "trashy chicken people" out of our subdivisions. The result was a culture void of chickens and chicken knowledge. That has radically changed in the last few years. People have become chicken crazy, and I love it. I live in a fairly affluent Atlanta suburb where chickens have been VERBOTEN until just a few months ago. Today people across America are fighting to get birds back in their yards, and my county now allows most people to keep three hens. But no one has any idea what to do with those hens. Every neighborhood used to have a chicken guy/gal where you could get answers to your questions and buy a few good laying hens. Where is he/she now? He/she is in this group. Knowledge is being shared and and chicken husbandry is returning to our neighborhoods. Dare I hope that subdivisions are becoming neighborhoods again? The people in this group are more than hobbyists... they are leaders in a social movement to bring back part of our heritage... a heritage grounded in sustainability and local community. That path to that leadership takes us thru learning all we can about producing better meat and egg chickens. I'm thrilled to be learning from you all.

Anthony

I share your optimism! We're beginning to see the same thing in the Tucson area, with the city council recently amending the city ordinance to allow chicken keepers to sell their eggs easily without plowing through all the government red tape. Our recent local poultry show revealed a significant uptick in participants and an increase in the number of breeds being shown. The one area I'm seeing a lag in revolves around meat production. A lot of people are still reluctant to butcher their birds to eat them.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I'm up to page 217! I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping someone can answer. I don't understand the term "deep" as it applies to good egg laying breed conformation. I can see how the body type of my dark cornish is very different from my Buckeyes and from my (probably, but not sure exactly) red sex link crosses. The red sex link crosses are of course (no surprise here) turning out to be the best layers. I can see from some pictures of Rhode Island Reds that their body shape is more rectangular , their backs seem longer than the Buckeye. Rhode Island Reds are supposedly a breed better for egg laying than the Buckeye.
But, when I look at pictures of production commercial leghorn hens, and the hatchery rhode island reds (that I know from experience lay very well) to me they look like triangles, not rectangles. I don't see a rectangular shape at all. In fact to me the Buckeye shape is more like the production leghorn. Clearly I'm not seeing what I should. I've read the Call of the Hen (I need to re read this a few more times, I don't understand it all) and I get the parts about the # of fingers distance between pubic bones etc. but how does that apply to "deep"?

On another topic, is there anyone who has experimented with Twentse/Kraienkoppe? I'm very interested in that breed and I think they could be a great all-around and productive chicken. Unfortunately I haven't found any Canadians who have this breed or I'd already have a flock to try.

 

[AnthNDacula]

Thanks for the new vocabulary word Ant Farm. I had to google "trap nest" to find out it was a nest box that contains the hen after she lays until you let her out, so you can know which egg is her's in a group pen. Very clever device. What will those chicken people think of next!

 

[Fentress]

I got Kraienkoppe from Sandhill Preservation Center. I think Ideal Hatchery may have some. I bought them to use as broodies a few years ago, at the time I saw them as a less aggressive version of Old English Game, which I did not want to try. As you probably know, they are a small bodied game type breed. Their bodies are nicely shaped, but small and they lay well, but the eggs are small and probably grade out to be a small. If they laid a larger egg, I would consider them a good dual purpose breed as far as small light bodied, thrifty breeds go. I have heard of lines that lay a larger egg, maybe Ideal. Boy can they fly, hundreds of feet at a time, 20 to 30 feet up in the air. I have wondered if other smaller breeds can fly as good as they do. Ironically, they respect my fence better than most breeds, only if very scared do they fly. There is a thread for this breed, but I don't think it is very active.

 

[dfr1973]

The 8 week weigh-in for my first batch of F1 GLWs and one Meatie:
Top four cockerels: 1lb 15.1 oz; 1lb 11.1oz; 1lb 9.8oz (Meatie); 1lb 9.7oz.
Top pullets: 1lb 10.7oz; 1lb 10.6oz; 1lb 8.5oz; 1lb 7.8oz.
Lowest is a pullet at 1lb 0.6oz, while the smallest cockerel is 1lb 5.1oz.
Maybe they'll hold still long enough to snap a pic or three ... hey, it could happen.

 

[Kassaundra]

From what I found lighting helps all birds in the winter. It depends on the breed of bird. A buckeye will not lay any more in the winter than in the summer neither will a welsummer from my experience without lighting. From what I found, If the bird lays lots of eggs in the summer she will lay lots of eggs in the winter with lighting. This includes if the weather is in the negative numbers.. This is just what I have noticed.

I cannot help you with identifying birds that are slackers as last spring and this fall I thought I sold my slackers but they were the best layers and now I have a majority of slackers in my coop. Other than my pullets that are laying the majority of eggs.

Bee knows how to identify the slackers!!!!!!! Though her technique may not be for the faint of heart, lol lol lol