BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I am glad to here that the two of you are interested in breeding your birds accordingly. It would be nice to know that the two of you begin the process. It is not a common interest. It is the interest that I started with back before poultry was popular again. I have maintained this interest along the way. I enjoy the more practical side of poultry.

Identifying the best layers is only half of the equation. In my last post, I qualified my statement in this way. Maintenance is not breeding for improvement. Identifying and keeping the better layers is maintenance. Not breeding. It is important that we understand that.

See, egg laying is not a single gene that we are trying to fix in our flock. It is a polygenic characteristic. It is not something that we can see like a color. It is a collection of traits that are not immediately obvious. Therefore the breeders are chosen once they have been proven. We evaluate them by the offspring that they produce. Then they are emphasized until they are replaced by someone better, or they are no longer practically functional.

Once we have identified our better layers, our efforts have only begun. Just because they lay well themselves does not mean that their offspring will. Many of them will not. Again, picking the better layer is no more than maintaining an average established already. To improve upon that average we have to identify who produces the more productive offspring. Again and again, and the average will improve over time.

This is a much more involved process than most will commit to.

Do not neglect the simple points of a productive hen either. She is evaluated over the course of her entire pullet year. Points like point of lay and when she comes into her first molt. Think length of lay. It matters a lot. If she so happens to come into lay a week earlier than her counterparts, and stops laying two weeks later . .. .. she had a pullet year that was three weeks longer. That could mean 12-18 more eggs. If she molts faster than her siblings, she comes back into lay sooner than her siblings. All of these things add up, and can mean a couple dozen eggs.

So evaluate them over their entire pullet year. Then as a hen breed the best, using cockerels from the best. Breed the next year those that produced the best performing offspring. The breeders have to be proven. This overlap of production is a see saw motion that carries you forward. Without this critical step, in a small flock, you will quickly maximize the average and maintenance is what it becomes. You will make progress for a couple generations as you rid yourself of what is holding them back. Once that is achieved, it is hard to make real progress otherwise.

And this will be my last comments on these topics. For a time at least. I am no expert either. I do enjoy the subject and the birds. It has been an interest of mine for a long time. I hope that all of you enjoy whatever it is that you are enjoying. It is a rewarding hobby if we are actually trying to accomplish a clear and defined goal. I do not know what it is otherwise. Keeping pets I guess. Well, I guess that is a hobby to.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I am glad to here that the two of you are interested in breeding your birds accordingly. It would be nice to know that the two of you begin the process. It is not a common interest. It is the interest that I started with back before poultry was popular again. I have maintained this interest along the way. I enjoy the more practical side of poultry.

Identifying the best layers is only half of the equation. In my last post, I qualified my statement in this way. Maintenance is not breeding for improvement. Identifying and keeping the better layers is maintenance. Not breeding. It is important that we understand that.

See, egg laying is not a single gene that we are trying to fix in our flock. It is a polygenic characteristic. It is not something that we can see like a color. It is a collection of traits that are not immediately obvious. Therefore the breeders are chosen once they have been proven. We evaluate them by the offspring that they produce. Then they are emphasized until they are replaced by someone better, or they are no longer practically functional.

Once we have identified our better layers, our efforts have only begun. Just because they lay well themselves does not mean that their offspring will. Many of them will not. Again, picking the better layer is no more than maintaining an average established already. To improve upon that average we have to identify who produces the more productive offspring. Again and again, and the average will improve over time.

This is a much more involved process than most will commit to.

Do not neglect the simple points of a productive hen either. She is evaluated over the course of her entire pullet year. Points like point of lay and when she comes into her first molt. Think length of lay. It matters a lot. If she so happens to come into lay a week earlier than her counterparts, and stops laying two weeks later . .. .. she had a pullet year that was three weeks longer. That could mean 12-18 more eggs. If she molts faster than her siblings, she comes back into lay sooner than her siblings. All of these things add up, and can mean a couple dozen eggs.

So evaluate them over their entire pullet year. Then as a hen breed the best, using cockerels from the best. Breed the next year those that produced the best performing offspring. The breeders have to be proven. This overlap of production is a see saw motion that carries you forward. Without this critical step, in a small flock, you will quickly maximize the average and maintenance is what it becomes. You will make progress for a couple generations as you rid yourself of what is holding them back. Once that is achieved, it is hard to make real progress otherwise.

And this will be my last comments on these topics. For a time at least. I am no expert either. I do enjoy the subject and the birds. It has been an interest of mine for a long time. I hope that all of you enjoy whatever it is that you are enjoying. It is a rewarding hobby if we are actually trying to accomplish a clear and defined goal. I do not know what it is otherwise. Keeping pets I guess. Well, I guess that is a hobby to.

I just started out with some new chickens last year, Buckeyes and dark Cornish, learning what I can about them ( a long way away from my project land race I know but I just like having those breeds around). I'm learning what I can before I start my project so that I can do it right. Your comments and those from others have been invaluable.

 

[AnthNDacula]

So I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the points you are making Gjensen and am not trying to be pedantic. I just got back from the store with a notebook to start recording what I learn here and want to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Improvement in egg production requires keeping records of the offspring of our better layers.
2) Records must be kept as follows
a. Point of Lay for each pullet
b. Point of first molt for each pullet
c. Actual length of pullet's laying year
d. Point of return to lay after molt

I never would have dreamed the length of the molt affected production. Of course it makes perfect sense, but I just never thought about it. I guess this information could be generalized to breeding for improvements in carcass quality in that we need to be holding on to older breeding stock until we evaluate their offsprings' performance.

 

[stryker]

You can also oil your eggs for long term storage when you have a surplus, to help make sure that you have  plenty year round.  I've used oiled eggs as old as 9 months old with good results.  Can't separate them to make things like meringue or divinity, but for normal use, they work just fine.

Never thought of it with the oil... we cannot even keep eggs around due to the demand. I need to keep 40-50 layers to even keep up but I only have 18 right now.

 

[gjensen]

It's what country folks used to do every year...it just makes sense. Let chickens sit their own eggs in the spring so they can raise up replacement layers and extra roosters for winter soup meat. Keep the best hens from each year's hatch, breed those, cull the rest each fall with the extra roosters, do it all again in the spring. No need for lights when you let nature take its course.

I came back to respond to this post, and make an attempt to be more balanced.

This post is a good and commendable post. What I like about it is it describes a seasonal rhythm. When we have timely hatches and our birds are not deficient, we have laying pullets before the hens molt etc. etc. The processing of growers, culls, and spent hens etc. was (and should be) seasonal. Poultry meat was a byproduct of the laying flock, and thus the development of dual purpose breeds.

I think we do best when we operate within a seasonal rhythm. When we manage our flock as a single organism.

I enjoy poultry and enjoy them according to the seasons.

 

[gjensen]

So I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the points you are making Gjensen and am not trying to be pedantic. I just got back from the store with a notebook to start recording what I learn here and want to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Improvement in egg production requires keeping records of the offspring of our better layers.
2) Records must be kept as follows
a. Point of Lay for each pullet
b. Point of first molt for each pullet
c. Actual length of pullet's laying year
d. Point of return to lay after molt

I never would have dreamed the length of the molt affected production. Of course it makes perfect sense, but I just never thought about it. I guess this information could be generalized to breeding for improvements in carcass quality in that we need to be holding on to older breeding stock until we evaluate their offsprings' performance.

What I tried to describe is length of lay.

Here is an example as to why it matters. Historically the Reds were known as good layers, better than the Rocks. (I am only describing a perception) Then the New Hampshires came along. Where the Reds were taking 24-28wks to start laying, the New Hampshires were laying @ 20wks. Potentially that is two months of laying before the Reds even start to lay.

See, we have a tendency to think my bird lays this many per week. I try to counter that thinking. Instead, we should think how many they lay per year. Then the question becomes what are the boundaries of that year. It is for the pullet, from point of lay up until the molt. For the Hen, it from molt to molt.

Certainly the length of molt matters. Some hens can take 16 wks plus to return to laying. Other only 8wks. There is a two month deficit or advantage comparing the two. 8 wks should amount to a considerable quantity of eggs.

It is how many they lay per year (or laying cycle), and not how many they lay per week. We should not neglect the points that restrict the length of lay. 8 wks can mean 40 eggs. The difference between 200 eggs and 240 eggs pa.

What I have tried to emphasize is what makes a good layer a good layer is many points. A good layer is the sum of her parts, or the sum of her characteristics. There are many points to consider and she should be evaluated over her entire cycle, that is the pullet year. Then she should be bred or culled.

This describes a framework for selection. It does not touch on the selection points themselves, or the breeding of the birds selected. I try to emphasize the active breeding of the birds, because generally speaking (mentally), we tend to stop at the selection. The process can vary, but there should be an intelligent plan to evaluate the results, and to move forward according to those results.

 

[Beer can]

I guess I got lucky when I had RIR, they took turns molting and always had eggs.
Is it more common for all to molt at about the same time?

My current layers haven't never molted that I've noticed, EE, Wellies, BLeghorns and a Polish. Never saw any missing feathers in two and a half yrs. They have taken breaks from laying but nothing significant.
Anyone else ever see this?

 

[DesertChic]

What I tried to describe is length of lay.

Here is an example as to why it matters. Historically the Reds were known as good layers, better than the Rocks. (I am only describing a perception) Then the New Hampshires came along. Where the Reds were taking 24-28wks to start laying, the New Hampshires were laying @ 20wks. Potentially that is two months of laying before the Reds even start to lay.

See, we have a tendency to think my bird lays this many per week. I try to counter that thinking. Instead, we should think how many they lay per year. Then the question becomes what are the boundaries of that year. It is for the pullet, from point of lay up until the molt. For the Hen, it from molt to molt.

Certainly the length of molt matters. Some hens can take 16 wks plus to return to laying. Other only 8wks. There is a two month deficit or advantage comparing the two. 8 wks should amount to a considerable quantity of eggs.

It is how many they lay per year (or laying cycle), and not how many they lay per week. We should not neglect the points that restrict the length of lay. 8 wks can mean 40 eggs. The difference between 200 eggs and 240 eggs pa.

What I have tried to emphasize is what makes a good layer a good layer is many points. A good layer is the sum of her parts, or the sum of her characteristics. There are many points to consider and she should be evaluated over her entire cycle, that is the pullet year. Then she should be bred or culled.

This describes a framework for selection. It does not touch on the selection points themselves, or the breeding of the birds selected. I try to emphasize the active breeding of the birds, because generally speaking (mentally), we tend to stop at the selection. The process can vary, but there should be an intelligent plan to evaluate the results, and to move forward according to those results.

What is your opinion about pullets that continue to lay strong during a hard molt? I've got one Australorp and one Barred Rock that are currently molting hard, but both are still consistently giving me at least 5 large eggs per week, whereas pre-molt they would each lay non-stop for up to 47 days before taking a day off. I mean, obviously this equates to more eggs in their first egg-laying year, but in your experience, does this tendency lend itself to something like burn-out, or early cessation of laying years?

 

[Beekissed]

I guess I got lucky when I had RIR, they took turns molting and always had eggs.
Is it more common for all to molt at about the same time?

My current layers haven't never molted that I've noticed, EE, Wellies, BLeghorns and a Polish. Never saw any missing feathers in two and a half yrs. They have taken breaks from laying but nothing significant.
Anyone else ever see this?

Most of my WRs never molted like most breeds do...mostly just some missing tail feathers and some feathers sloughing at the thighs. Because they molt by small degrees, I think it's easy to imagine they aren't molting at all but they are definitely molting....I can see the evidence all over the coop and yard. They also tend to slow down in laying, though the better hens don't completely stop during molt. My WRs recover from molt rather swiftly compared to other breeds I've had also.

The same has been true for my BAs...they tend to molt by degrees instead of all at once and they never fully stop laying during molt or winter, though their molt recovery time is more lengthy than my WRs.

IME, molt times for individual birds doesn't remain static either, as they age or with different weather patterns they can change their usual molt times and patterns. How a hen molts when she is 1 or 2 can be vastly different than how she molts at age 4-5, so that's something to take into account. I guess most people just plan for that 2-3 yrs of life in a hen but don't consider her performance past that... I'll often keep exceptional layers past that age as long as they continue to lay well for their age, for breeding purposes and simply to honor a good hen.

There's a few things thing I~personally~have not been able to affect with a change in nutritional levels~ away from a regular, balanced ration~ is the molt times or laying proficiency during molting or winter. I've found I can increase different nutrients all I want but they pretty much will run their natural course anyway...if a hen usually molts completely and takes a long time to finish, no amount of food of any kind seems to change that. Same with laying...if they cease laying during molt, no amount of increasing protein or calcium seems to increase lay...they either will or they won't, it seems. At least, that's been my experience as I've experimented over the years with such things....I guess that's where genetics come into play and it becomes nature over nurture in regards to laying proficiency and molt recovery. YMMV

 

[gjensen]

What is your opinion about pullets that continue to lay strong during a hard molt? I've got one Australorp and one Barred Rock that are currently molting hard, but both are still consistently giving me at least 5 large eggs per week, whereas pre-molt they would each lay non-stop for up to 47 days before taking a day off. I mean, obviously this equates to more eggs in their first egg-laying year, but in your experience, does this tendency lend itself to something like burn-out, or early cessation of laying years?

I will fall back to my talking points, LOL. She is the sum of her parts, and she has been evaluated over an entire laying cycle. This one point does not tell me everything about her. By this time, you should know her pretty well, and have your own answer already.

BUT . . . my experience has been that these are good layers. I am only reluctant to say that publicly because people will latch on to that. Then if they see it, their mind is made up. Regardless of what she did the rest of the year.

I do not concern myself with burn out as I do longevity. Bee just mentioned our evaluation being short. I agree and disagree. My evaluation is the pullet year. 98% of the time, the best laying pullets are the best laying hens. The best laying pullet is usually the best laying hen in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year etc.
There can eventually be some overlap with inferior fowl. Some that do not do well early in their life can maintain at a similar rate for some time and eventually do as well as the better birds. This hen is not to be commended however. Mediocrity should never be applauded. Truthfully, she should have been killed long ago.

So though I do not see a lot of value in counting her eggs past the second year, hopefully she is kept beyond her second year. I want to promote longevity by breeding older birds. That is how you promote health and longevity. By breeding older birds that have stood the test of time.

There are birds that never give us a reason to cull them. They are our true keepers. We fashion for ourselves all kinds of reasons to keep this bird and that bird. However, the birds that we emphasize are the ones that repeatedly, year after year, out perform their peers. And we do compare them to their peers. No others but their own generation.