BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[3riverschick]

I'm sorry, I really didn't make myself clear. While we are absolutely prepared to carry on a conformation program with regard to infrastructure, neither of us are set at this point to provide the emotional treasure that would be required to do the job with total dedication. Jason is still not over his ride through the deserts and escarpments and I'm still not over the stress of worrying about him for the past 12 years.

Once we get ourselves re-charged and properly grounded, I think that new facility will have plenty of room to begin what it was initially built for...all in good time.

Ron,
You and Jason take your time. It's important. When my oldest son came back from riding the escarpments he went straight to the USHS Nautilus Sub Museum. He spent 4 yrs. there as a guide and doing children's educational events. He left there last year with his new wife and is off to another post. My point, it takes time to decompress from that eastern situation. I think the most valuable thing you can do now is hang out together or apart as seems best. Don't waste your energy on extraneous projects right now. There will be time later. My son brought home pics. I remember one vividly He and 2 of his buds had spent the night in the northwest area in the ruin of a structure from the times of Alexander The Great. It still strikes me as odd such a historic spot would just be a way station for a days work. Here in America we would have made it a National attraction.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

I think all the discussion about the maturity of the stock and the rapidity with which it grows is a "life and times" thing. These books which discuss this are from about 1905 thru 1927. You figure the Industrial Revolution was just gearing up in 1850. that makes it really only about 77 yrs. old in 1927. We are in the middle of moving away from an agrarian society when these books were written. We had things like sliced bread, bottled milk, canned foods etc. But we didn't have the modern world of the last 70 years. Suburbs really didn't catch on until after WWII when they had to find places for the returning soldiers to live. Iceboxes became more modern, stoves, air conditioners. Instead of a time where it was strict tradition to observe this and that Holiday during the year, after WWII, we began to have Holiday when we felt like it because preparation was easier, and the foods for those holidays was more available year round, as were the home place facilities to keep that food fresh.
Back in time again to the 1905-1927 era. We still clung to the agrarian traditions As did the farmers who raised the stock. They planned their output each year.
The birds had to develop within such and such a time frame for such and such a holiday or to take advantage of such and such a time of year when prices for that prouct ( Eggs, meat, etc.) were high.
Fast forward, tho we understand why the farmer did what he did, we no longer have that "need" to do what he did for tradition's sake. However, it no longer matters if our birds lay at 20 or 25 weeks. Make early broliers, have chicks early enough so they are fattened for Easter. And it shows in the birds.
What is a heritage bird? One which fit the needs of pre-WWII America. What is a production bird? One which fills the needs of post WWII America.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[chickadoodles]

I have done this before. It is convenient because the PDF file can be accessed easily on your computer--or if you use a cloud storage, on Smart Phones and Tablets.

I got the instructions. Thanks Ron, your always so helpful

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Let me see if I can adress a couple points:


I agree that BYC is not a complete representative of the chicken world. BUt I do think that we have established that each line/strain must be evaluated for it's own specific attributes, and cannot assume a whole breed has those characteristics of old.

Early matureity can have its benefits. I'm not a show person, so cannot comment to that but only acknowledge your observation. From a production view I would want a bird in lay asap. But given that a pullet in lay eats far more than a non-layer per haps there is a benefit to delaying laying to a time when the availability of food increases. In many winter areas, the feed availability is at its lowest in the late winter when the stores have been depleted, or when the winter foraging as depleted everything. THe spring growth is just starting here with frogs and snakes about and earthworms abundant again. If a farmer is forunate enough, the stored food will last until now and beyond.


GIven that environment, I would expect a small, slight bird that matures ( lays) in the spring to be ideal. However I realize that chickens have been selected to reflect the bounty of tilled land, and grain storage. THen humans put on the pressure and selected for the traits that fit the needs of the region to go along with the local land management. THis resulted in the vast types of chickens we have today. THe down fall is that the breeds have not been kept up for use.

I do think that many of these breeds still have the basic geneti make up to thrive on the original management they were selected for. Karen often posts the sussex information. I don't think she is far off in looking to that past for pertinent information. THe bresse was fed for fattening on corn, and the sulms on mlk and ______, sorry i'm blanking. ( I might have these reversed) BUt my point is there is a reason why each of these birds were raised up a specific way: to fill a niche in the local management and use the available food stuffs. To find the history of management and feeding of a breed is to tap into what that breed was designed for.


Sorry this was verrrrry long winded. But I do see the old management informatin as important as being able to tap into the modern assaying of food stuffs and creating a balanced diet that is optimal. Using the best of both.

THe hen and chicks. Based on one hen and her brood of 12 that she raised to matureity ( the 13th failed to thrive and died at 2 weeks). THose chicke ran fast, a quickness I dont see in brooder babies. She covered a lot of territory in a day. Including some areas with vegetation and some with low levels of insects. I can't say that theygrew fast as I didn't know the benefit of looking for that. I was worried about survival. THey had grain available ( commercial pellets) and ate a significant amt off the land. I would like to know what the cost per pundof meat would have been for this group. ANd that is what I mean about production differences. IF this hen chould produce 12 carcasses for almost nil in cost of feed, wouldn't that be far better economically that feeding up 13 cornish x in a pen and buying all the food for 8 weeks. I hope I am writing this well enough to make sense. Maybe the amount of meat is less, but the cost of production MUCH less.

Getting late and brain is failing . . . lol until tomorrow . . .

 

[hellbender]

Can you both expand on this--- I need to understand it better-- I think you are saying that the best are kept no matter the generation, the best is the best. . . . .yes?

No matter the generation? Do you mean that pullets and cockerels are culled that show obvious physical defects?...Yes, for me. You know that we cull every hen at the age of 4 years, no matter how well she is laying and if one is given the 'fingers' and/or the vent check for moisture and flaccidity with poor results, she is culled as well.

That's just about as well as I can expound upon this subject.

RON

 

[gjensen]

Matt, it is a simple as not selecting for it. In exhibition circles the notion is that you cannot tell who your breeders are for up to a year. That is all that matters. What they are at the time they are optimal to show. That Is all that matters.

Then there is the misconception that "heritage" means slow, and as a result tolerated to an extreme. Almost as if it is a badge of honor. Yes, it does mean slow if it is compared to the modern unhealthy extremes, but not slow in the sense some see it.

The meat strains of Delaware and New Hamphire in their prime were often processed as fryers as early as 12 wks. That is not far some of the modern colored broilers, but of course did not have an equivalent carcass.
Concerning these two, the Standard refers a more dual purpose bird, so we are probably talking a little later. The New Hampshire cross that Jeremy did last year, were ready on my yard at 14wks. I probably could have gotten a little better out of them had I pushed them. There was some hybrid vigor involved, but speaks to the potential we could realize with this breed.

However, that raises another question. When breeding a pure breed, how much devotion do we give this single characteristics. I could not say that I am interested in the ultra performers because I do not know that I could maintain the quality in the mean time.

Concerning the New Hampshire or Delaware, I would be very pleased with 200 extra large eggs coming from pullets that start in the 20-22 wk range if the cockerels achieved a fryer weight @ 14wks. That is a good all round bird and there are not many strains capable of such today. Not and be "any good". There are lot of claims to this or that, but the reality is usually much different. That is what I have wanted to achieve with my NHs. I was seeing 28wks as POL, and began seeing 24-26. I was hoping to get to 22-24.

If a flock is in good shape, I do not mind the idea of a little less. Just as long as they are not crazy bad. 28wks is too late for a NH by an reasonable standard. But 24 is a bit more reasonable if it is a good bird.

What kills me is if on top of all that has been discussed they also lay medium sized eggs. It bugs me for a large fowl not to lay large eggs. I always figured a years weight of eggs was just as relevant as qty of eggs. 200 medium sized eggs is not the same as 200 large to extra large eggs, of course.

There are a few strains of this and that, that perform pretty well. Why are not we searching them out? I know of some good Delaware. The NHs are a work in progress. There are some performing Standard bred Buckeyes. What else is out there?

I know some of the Red strains perform poorly, but I have heard that some do pretty well. I imagine that there are quite a few breeds and varieties that have potential in this sense, but which ones are they? Who has them?

And Matt, I agree with the three year deal if there is some variability within the flock. In some flocks we are talking about a pretty big undertaking. Some would require an outcross to get anywhere. I imagine all that some need is a little vigor.
I get the hesitancy to outcross. I am nervous about messing with my NHs. I have a project of an outcross on the side, but will not commit unless I like what I see. Then carefully.

 

[gjensen]

I think all the discussion about the maturity of the stock and the rapidity with which it grows is a "life and times" thing. These books which discuss this are from about 1905 thru 1927. You figure the Industrial Revolution was just gearing up in 1850. that makes it really only about 77 yrs. old in 1927. We are in the middle of moving away from an agrarian society when these books were written. We had things like sliced bread, bottled milk, canned foods etc. But we didn't have the modern world of the last 70 years. Suburbs really didn't catch on until after WWII when they had to find places for the returning soldiers to live. Iceboxes became more modern, stoves, air conditioners. Instead of a time where it was strict tradition to observe this and that Holiday during the year, after WWII, we began to have Holiday when we felt like it because preparation was easier, and the foods for those holidays was more available year round, as were the home place facilities to keep that food fresh.
Back in time again to the 1905-1927 era. We still clung to the agrarian traditions As did the farmers who raised the stock. They planned their output each year.
The birds had to develop within such and such a time frame for such and such a holiday or to take advantage of such and such a time of year when prices for that prouct ( Eggs, meat, etc.) were high.
Fast forward, tho we understand why the farmer did what he did, we no longer have that "need" to do what he did for tradition's sake. However, it no longer matters if our birds lay at 20 or 25 weeks. Make early broliers, have chicks early enough so they are fattened for Easter. And it shows in the birds.
What is a heritage bird? One which fit the needs of pre-WWII America. What is a production bird? One which fills the needs of post WWII America.
Best Regards,
Karen

That is right Karen. Why we raise poultry has changed. The farmers are not using what we are keeping, and it does not make a lot of sense for them to do so. Not economical sense anyways.

Call it nostalgia or whatever, but I like to see these birds be what they could be. On many levels.

I tend to call the 20s - 40s the golden years. We come a long ways fast. They lost me when it went the way it went going into the 50s.

Most of us like one pure breed or another, and would like to see them be what they should.

I have a near life long fascination with the NH. Probably started with some silly advertisement in a hatchery catalog. As an adult, I became familiar with why they had the type they did. Then In a batch of production reds, one grew out a little faster. A lighter colored red with a broader back. He stood out to me. He was either mixed up in the crowd, or a throwback of sorts. Regardless, it was on then. It helped that they fit my "production model", and I found their history fascinating.

 

[hellbender]

Hellbender, when is your expert coming to teach about poulardizing? Don't leave town before you give results and pics, please.

He'll be here one week from today and will work for three days. The instructions will be posted here in a vid., provided I get the 'ok' from the Moderators. Don't see why it should not be forthcoming.

The vid. will include general photos of our farm, the dogs, birds etc, and specific areas of importance to the aspects that keep this place running with relative smoothness.

 

[LindaB220]

Let me see if I can adress a couple points:


I agree that BYC is not a complete representative of the chicken world. BUt I do think that we have established that each line/strain must be evaluated for it's own specific attributes, and cannot assume a whole breed has those characteristics of old.

Early matureity can have its benefits. I'm not a show person, so cannot comment to that but only acknowledge your observation. From a production view I would want a bird in lay asap. But given that a pullet in lay eats far more than a non-layer per haps there is a benefit to delaying laying to a time when the availability of food increases. In many winter areas, the feed availability is at its lowest in the late winter when the stores have been depleted, or when the winter foraging as depleted everything. THe spring growth is just starting here with frogs and snakes about and earthworms abundant again. If a farmer is forunate enough, the stored food will last until now and beyond.


GIven that environment, I would expect a small, slight bird that matures ( lays) in the spring to be ideal. However I realize that chickens have been selected to reflect the bounty of tilled land, and grain storage. THen humans put on the pressure and selected for the traits that fit the needs of the region to go along with the local land management. THis resulted in the vast types of chickens we have today. THe down fall is that the breeds have not been kept up for use.

I do think that many of these breeds still have the basic geneti make up to thrive on the original management they were selected for. Karen often posts the sussex information. I don't think she is far off in looking to that past for pertinent information. THe bresse was fed for fattening on corn, and the sulms on mlk and ______, sorry i'm blanking. ( I might have these reversed) BUt my point is there is a reason why each of these birds were raised up a specific way: to fill a niche in the local management and use the available food stuffs. To find the history of management and feeding of a breed is to tap into what that breed was designed for.


Sorry this was verrrrry long winded. But I do see the old management informatin as important as being able to tap into the modern assaying of food stuffs and creating a balanced diet that is optimal. Using the best of both.

THe hen and chicks. Based on one hen and her brood of 12 that she raised to matureity ( the 13th failed to thrive and died at 2 weeks). THose chicke ran fast, a quickness I dont see in brooder babies. She covered a lot of territory in a day. Including some areas with vegetation and some with low levels of insects. I can't say that theygrew fast as I didn't know the benefit of looking for that. I was worried about survival. THey had grain available ( commercial pellets) and ate a significant amt off the land. I would like to know what the cost per pundof meat would have been for this group. ANd that is what I mean about production differences. IF this hen chould produce 12 carcasses for almost nil in cost of feed, wouldn't that be far better economically that feeding up 13 cornish x in a pen and buying all the food for 8 weeks. I hope I am writing this well enough to make sense. Maybe the amount of meat is less, but the cost of production MUCH less.

Getting late and brain is failing . . . lol until tomorrow . . .

Very good post on the hen and her babies.

 

[thedragonlady]

Thanks so much for sharing your method with me! I appreciate it so much!

My brother bought me the caner last year but he took the book out and kept it for the recipes, Ugh!
That is why I asked you how you did it? Do you recall how long you left your jars in your caner even after you cooked your birds first or how long you cooked the chicken in the caner if it was raw? I was wondering if I should cook the birds first or can them raw?

Anyone wanting to can , or preserve anything, should have a copy of "Putting Food By'. It tells you how to preserve everything under the sun safely. Last time I looked, it was available on Amazon. I used it for years.