BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[Arielle]

THose are great ideas Ron!! We are reclaiming woods that must have been a rough pasture somewhere in the far distant past as it is surrounded by rockwalls even deep into the woods. First job is removing enough trees to let in the sunlight, and dramatically change the current environment. A dandylion cannot grow in the current sunlight starve understory.

Your timing was good ROn. I was just at the point of figuring out which squash seeds to order from Sand Hill; squash does well in piles of manure on just cleared land!!

I had dandylion leaves in my salad this morning--- sure didn't look like a wild varity, and lacked much of the milky white sap. WOnder what it is?

 

[LindaB220]

Quick question, Ron. I know you're busy. Is it possible for you to also film a caponization. Graphic Pics of my day of learning to caponize thread is very interested. Only if you have time. Appreciate all you are doing to pass the learning along. This is very important info.

 

[southernmomma]

THose are great ideas Ron!!  We are reclaiming[
woods that must have been a rough pasture somewhere in the far distant past as it is surrounded by rockwalls even deep into the woods.  First job is removing enough trees to let in the sunlight, and dramatically change the current environment. A dandylion cannot grow in the current sunlight starve understory.

Your timing was good ROn. I was just at the point of figuring out which squash seeds to order from Sand Hill; squash does well in piles of manure on just cleared land!! 

I had dandylion leaves in my salad this morning--- sure didn't look like a wild varity, and lacked much of the milky white sap. WOnder what it is?

It will be interesting to see what will pop up as vegetation in these old pastures you're opening up~ you never know what is lying in wait of sunshine!

We will be embarking on a similar adventure soon and I too hope to create a foraging treasure trove to supplement a flock. It's my thought that if the desire to forage and the complexity of the environment are well matched it would greatly reduce our reliance on commercial feed.

M

 

[gjensen]

I posted this over on the new heritage thread, but that may not be the right place for it so I'll try over here as well.

Has anyone had a slow-down in egg production over the last few days? Ours have dropped about 30-40% and I've talked to several other flock owners and they've seen production drop from30% up to 90% or nearly completely gone.

The only thing I can figure is the rise in temperature as we head into summer is affecting them.

colburg

Any change can slow them down for a bit. Birds that are not especially good layers will slow down after the spring spike. A lot of things can cause a temporary drop.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Will definitely be interesting to see what pops up!!

One thing I learned about kale is that if it is sheltered fromt he sun ( by tall weeds) it keeps on living, can't say thriving, but enough to keep picking a leave or two off each plant. Made me realize that giving the right micro location many plants can do better in the heat of the summer if a little "out side the box" thinking is applied. Kale thrives in the cool weahter and can withstand a heavy frost and early winter conditions. Makes me think other crops in this family might also be the same.

parsnips can be harvested well after frost and into winter, too

After reading the link From Ron I was confused by the pea/bean issue and which are not safe for the chickens . . . if anyone has info on this . . .

 

[gjensen]

Here's a good question that my mentor asked another forum...

She posed the question that if you don't show, and want a productive breed why do you breed to a standard? On these internet forums it is made to seem like poultry shows are a big thing, that there area a lot of them and there are a lot of attendees. But in reality this is not the case 99% of people who want to raise and breed chickens want a productive one.... Go for it...




Also the best advice I have gotten was from an old school professional poultrymen... "Know a good chicken".

I like the last statement. That seams easier said than done, when even many exhibitors fail to realize why their breed has the type it does, and why it is important to keep it. Then others that think they know, but really do not.

My question to the comment "Why breed to the Standard?" would be then "Why breed a pure breed?". Breed characteristics define a breed, both phenotype and genotype. My position would be, if I was anti Standard, to strip myself of any boundaries or perceptions and breed something new all together. I could not take a pure breed, breed them away from a recognized Standard and call them by their name. It would be misleading.

The part I still cannot get by the anti Standard position is that a non standard is still a standard. A standard describes an ideal, and it is impossible to intelligently breed animals without a goal and an ideal. If someone's ideal is different than what the APA or other describes, then they are breeding something different than what is recognized and accepted by most. Nothing wrong with that, just call it something different.

Really, I have no qualms on any level. I just do not understand the anti Standard mentality. Many that breed to the Standard also breed very productive birds. It is true that there is the extreme that are solely concerned with ornamental qualities. I do not get that either, unless it is an ornamental breed. I just find that often the anti Standard crowd does not have anything to brag on either.

Ever heard of subjective and objective values? Monopoly money can within a family have trading value, but outside of the family it does not. It is not recognized by the whole or backed by any credible institution. On the other hand, the real paper money is recognized and backed by a supposed credible institution. This gives the paper real value, and is recognized world wide. Our birds haphazardly bred to an individual's concepts have no real recognized value, even if they are valued within a circle. They are really reduced to less than 1.50 each mail order chicks where the extra males are disposed of as a waste product.
On the other hand if an individual was able to breed an exceptionally remarkable strain that could compete with the ultra performers, then it would at least be equal in value to those 1.50 each birds.
On the other hand well bred Standard bred birds, that are productive, are special. Not a whole lot of them, which makes them rare, then they have something over the competition, they are recognized and backed by a respected and recognized institution, and have historic relevance. They are a continuation of generations of hard work by master breeders. There is no shortage of backyard birds that lay eggs. Plenty of them around the world.

Personally I want the complete package. I see both external and unseen faults and qualities. I want good feather quality, good heads, good comps, good type, good color, god health, good vigor, good longevity, etc. I also want to see them with appropriate growth rates and levels of production. They are after all, livestock. I guess I see that when you breed animals, you are not breeding parts of them, but the entire animal. I want quality from the surface to the core. To me the tail is part of the bird, so it is relevant to me. Even the eyes. It bugs me to see misshapen eyes, or eyes that do not fill the socket. I like the wings to be held nice and tight. Heck, most Jungle Fowl have decent combs, so there better be a good comb on my birds.
On the other hand, I cannot see perpetuating poor producers. Just makes no sense to me.

Regardless, any intelligent breeding project has to have a goal and ideals. And there are many things to consider. We are after all breeding an entire bird. Not just a mass of organs, and flesh. Or even just a pile of pretty feathers.

 

[gjensen]

THose are great ideas Ron!! We are reclaiming woods that must have been a rough pasture somewhere in the far distant past as it is surrounded by rockwalls even deep into the woods. First job is removing enough trees to let in the sunlight, and dramatically change the current environment. A dandylion cannot grow in the current sunlight starve understory.

Your timing was good ROn. I was just at the point of figuring out which squash seeds to order from Sand Hill; squash does well in piles of manure on just cleared land!!

I had dandylion leaves in my salad this morning--- sure didn't look like a wild varity, and lacked much of the milky white sap. WOnder what it is?

After you open some stuff up. Till it. I know you have rocky soil, but if you can get it scratched up, you will be surprised by what is already there waiting for the right conditions. Weed (wild plants) seeds (many) can lay dormant for hundreds of years. Seed what you open up and allow the volunteers to come up to. The diversity is an advantage. All woods or are all pasture is only part. Jungle Fowl prefer open woodlands with adjacent clearings. They like edge type habitats that have not gown to dense.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: We are definitely rocky here George!! Grow lots of rocks. Tilling as with a mechanical tiller will not be possible; an old fashioned fork is possible in limited places. We have been dumping horse manure for years in accesable areas in hopes of providing seed and building the soils. If I am understanding the edges, they need to be periodically cleared to maintain openness-- too easy for a predator to hide and catch one out in the open I suppose.

We are trying to keep many of the trees as a base for shade and diversity. I have noticed that most farm animals struggle in the summer heat and a living shade seems to provide the best shade. Better than a building.

 

[southernmomma]

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[neopolitancrazy]

We are definitely rocky here George!! Grow lots of rocks. Tilling as with a mechanical tiller will not be possible; an old fashioned fork is possible in limited places. We have been dumping horse manure for years in accesable areas in hopes of providing seed and building the soils. If I am understanding the edges, they need to be periodically cleared to maintain openness-- too easy for a predator to hide and catch one out in the open I suppose.

We are trying to keep many of the trees as a base for shade and diversity. I have noticed that most farm animals struggle in the summer heat and a living shade seems to provide the best shade. Better than a building.

Arielle, I don't remember whether you currently have sheep, but when I had sheep, I was amazed at what a great job they did clearing underbrush. They not only cleared the vines and bushes, they ate every tree of less than 2" diameter. IF you have sheep or goats, you could let them do a lot of work for you.
Just a thought,
Angela