BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I 'hear' you and understand, but realize my learning curve is HUGE and as a newbie my first priority is to simply figure out how to keep said chickies alive long enough TO get to know them as a breed

In the meantime, I shall read all this information that is 'over' my head and start the learning process. It does appear I am in good company for that and thank you all very much for having a thread of this nature which allows people like me to 'pick' your brains! I'm smart enough to know when I am surrounded by guru's and offer you the guru homage --->

Just do not take any of us too seriously. We do not have any "experts", just "enthusiasts". Check everything you hear for yourself. So much does not universally apply anyways.

 

[LindaB220]

I 'hear' you and understand, but realize my learning curve is HUGE and as a newbie my first priority is to simply figure out how to keep said chickies alive long enough TO get to know them as a breed

In the meantime, I shall read all this information that is 'over' my head and start the learning process. It does appear I am in good company for that and thank you all very much for having a thread of this nature which allows people like me to 'pick' your brains! I'm smart enough to know when I am surrounded by guru's and offer you the guru homage --->

Me, too. I'm learning daily. So lucky to have such great teachers.

 

[hellbender]

I've enjoyed the pics and all the very informative posts!

I'm not sure now if I bragging or complaining here...perhaps a little of both. It's 31*F with gusting wind and my layers are all out as they have been all day, keeping the dogs busy by running all over the place looking for bits of just about everything the warmer days before have brought up. I will never understand why some folks can not understand why NN/Turkens actually do very well in all weather extremes.

Also, I'm pleased the three NN gals are still holding fast to their clutches of Australorp eggs. In fact, I think one or two of them have deposited a couple of their own eggs. Should be no problem. I doubt there will be need to have them DNA tested as those shiny little necks will be just as accurate as any other documentation.

Thank you all for helping to keep this thread moving forward. Truly, everyone is welcome....Total SOP folks as well as just chicken lovers who have a backyard covered with feathered creatures of dubious pedigree.

RON

Forgot to mention, it's been 'spiting' snow for the last few hours, with an expected low of 19*F tonight. After this past Winter...like a walk in the park!

 

[RedRidge]

Well at Ron's suggestion I decided to pop in on this thread. Sounds like a much needed topic. I know I wish this info had been available to me years ago - maybe it would have saved me years of trial and error. Then again, I wouldn't have learned as much the hard way, which is sometimes a good way too learn. ;-)
I look forward to going back and reading the thread from the beginning before I pop in again. Thanks for the thread Ron.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Thank you, Ron, for starting this thread, I intend to read it in its entirety very soon. I certainly intend to breed my Dorkings for meat and eggs, just as soon as I figure out the hatchability problems I have been having. Any suggestions for breeder rations are welcome, as are other suggestions for improving hatchability. (This has been a topic of discussion here on BYC as well as the FB Dorking group.)
Best wishes,
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Quote: I weighed my Dorkings at several different ages and tracked their weights last year. My "country" co-workers thought that was the funniest thing they had ever heard of

 

[RedRidge]

My current breeding project is improving the Rhodebars to be the dual purpose birds they were supposed to be using standard bred RIR hens. There are two of us in the US working on this project, myself and another breeder in FL with the help of 2 geneticists.

Rhodebars are an autosexed, barred RIR. This is not meant to be a criticism of anyone else's project. If egg production is what you are looking for you can't beat a production red. But if you want a great carcass and better than average egg production, then the SOP reds can't be beat. I've tried many breeds over the years for both meat and eggs - i don't make that statement lightly.
I hate to bring up the SOP on this thread but remember, the SOP is a necessary baseline. It really is impossible not to consider the SOP when a breed is based on one.
Type, color, etc... it's all important or what we are creating is a whole new breed. That's what happened when the production Reds were created - a whole new breed. Useful and important but... they did a disservice to the heritage birds by not renaming the production Reds to something else.
If you want to create a new breed, I applaud you. I simply want to improve a breed in dire need of help.

My HRIR have production records for both eggs and meat... and they are bred to the standard. But their personal records - both egg laying and carcass quality, weight and flavor - are my baseline figures for analyzing the Rhodebars.
If you are going to improve you must keep production records, you can't simply guess. And you must have goals. I want my Rhodebars to have the type my RIR have as well as their carcass quality and egg production.
All of my F1 are on the ground and my F2 and BC1 will be in the bator soon.

So. .. Back to production...
Some RB have average egg production. Some are below average.
ALL have terrible type, lacking shape and width to ever produce a decent carcass.
Tracking and analyzing both on multiple excel spreadsheets is what we are working on right now. You have to establish a baseline. Tracking the HRIR has enabled me to use those figures for my baselines. Individual laying records is easy. Carcasses we are analyzing and weighing at 10 months.
We are now accumulating the RB data. It is awful. And I don't say that easily. I am blessed to have some of the few Rhodebars out there that are 100% autosexable 100% of the time and do not have feathered shanks or green legs or black breasts... or that crazy stick straight up in the air tail.
And their production simply isn't what it should be, their carcasses are terrible, their egg production is not as good as my HRIR.

So... record keeping. .. it's all about record keeping.
Each chick, tracked separately from hatch on with weekly and then monthly pics and stats. And. .. Lots of culling.

But here's the good news. .. When you have no where to go but up it is easy. What is difficult is tweaking an already great breed to make it any better. You can always change it, but can you improve it? ;-)

Ok... Back to lurking and learning. ..

 

[Arielle]

Quote: A few years ago I would have agreed with you, now I'm with the "country " folk. One of those trial and error issues Red ridge mentioned-- I weighed all my lambs, generation after generation, saved the biggest. SHearer said I had pretty big sheep. THen one day a semi-lethal reared its head and bought a new ram to dilute the double recessive---- and the new boy was many inches shorter than all my rams, BUT he was packed solid with muscle. I had missed one very important factor in all that weighing. To feel for muscle thickness, and get out and see other sheep.

Of course there are machines that can measure muscle thickness I imagine; as there is one for backfat on the porkers.

 

[hellbender]

My current breeding project is improving the Rhodebars to be the dual purpose birds they were supposed to be using standard bred RIR hens. There are two of us in the US working on this project, myself and another breeder in FL with the help of 2 geneticists.

Rhodebars are an autosexed, barred RIR. This is not meant to be a criticism of anyone else's project. If egg production is what you are looking for you can't beat a production red. But if you want a great carcass and better than average egg production, then the SOP reds can't be beat. I've tried many breeds over the years for both meat and eggs - i don't make that statement lightly.
I hate to bring up the SOP on this thread but remember, the SOP is a necessary baseline. It really is impossible not to consider the SOP when a breed is based on one.
Type, color, etc... it's all important or what we are creating is a whole new breed. That's what happened when the production Reds were created - a whole new breed. Useful and important but... they did a disservice to the heritage birds by not renaming the production Reds to something else.
If you want to create a new breed, I applaud you. I simply want to improve a breed in dire need of help.

My HRIR have production records for both eggs and meat... and they are bred to the standard. But their personal records - both egg laying and carcass quality, weight and flavor - are my baseline figures for analyzing the Rhodebars.
If you are going to improve you must keep production records, you can't simply guess. And you must have goals. I want my Rhodebars to have the type my RIR have as well as their carcass quality and egg production.
All of my F1 are on the ground and my F2 and BC1 will be in the bator soon.

So. .. Back to production...
Some RB have average egg production. Some are below average.
ALL have terrible type, lacking shape and width to ever produce a decent carcass.
Tracking and analyzing both on multiple excel spreadsheets is what we are working on right now. You have to establish a baseline. Tracking the HRIR has enabled me to use those figures for my baselines. Individual laying records is easy. Carcasses we are analyzing and weighing at 10 months.
We are now accumulating the RB data. It is awful. And I don't say that easily. I am blessed to have some of the few Rhodebars out there that are 100% autosexable 100% of the time and do not have feathered shanks or green legs or black breasts... or that crazy stick straight up in the air tail.
And their production simply isn't what it should be, their carcasses are terrible, their egg production is not as good as my HRIR.

So... record keeping. .. it's all about record keeping.
Each chick, tracked separately from hatch on with weekly and then monthly pics and stats. And. .. Lots of culling.

But here's the good news. .. When you have no where to go but up it is easy. What is difficult is tweaking an already great breed to make it any better. You can always change it, but can you improve it? ;-)

Ok... Back to lurking and learning. ..

Please don't make the mistake of thinking SOP is considered 'bad language'. I started this thread at a time when I felt really put out by some unkind folks who thought SOP is the only way anyone should think.

I have since met some very nice and caring/sharing SOP folks and for that matter, my son and I are making fairly large steps toward establishing a SOP breeding program for RED NNs.

 

[gjensen]

I weighed my Dorkings at several different ages and tracked their weights last year. My "country" co-workers thought that was the funniest thing they had ever heard of

I weigh my birds to. First @ 12 wks. Then at least again @ 1 yr. I like to spot check them here and there in the mean time.

I cannot see how you can intelligently breed them without a scale.