BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

I understand why, but I'm sad to see you pass on the standard breeding project. Always need talented and knowledgable breeders, there's not enough of them.

I'm sorry, I really didn't make myself clear. While we are absolutely prepared to carry on a conformation program with regard to infrastructure, neither of us are set at this point to provide the emotional treasure that would be required to do the job with total dedication. Jason is still not over his ride through the deserts and escarpments and I'm still not over the stress of worrying about him for the past 12 years.

Once we get ourselves re-charged and properly grounded, I think that new facility will have plenty of room to begin what it was initially built for...all in good time.

 

[gjensen]

Well that thread got busy in a hurry, just some general points.

1. Standard bred birds will generally do lay longer and produce more eggs over a lifetime (regardless of the finite number of eggs thing) because they have the larger bodies and normal growth rates that the laying process is not as much of a strain on the anatomy of a bird. I have never had an issue of prolapse of eggbound or any other laying related health issue since I ditched my last hatchery birds almost 20 years ago.

2. I would not judge standard bred birds based on difficulties experienced by "breeders" here on BYC. Issues such as laying and fertility are often a line by line and breeder by breeder situation. It is very rare someone that knows what they're doing breeds themselves into a corner, standard bred or not.

3. All birds and breeds have their purpose, but if meat is truly part of one of your goals, you won't get much off a commercially bred "dual purpose" fowl. Not when the breeds are half the size they should be which means half the meat they should have. Of course this is also part of wise breed selection. A hatchery Jersey Giant for instance might weigh in at 7 lbs, and that's plenty of meat for many so they serve that purpose just as well as the 13 lb birds called for by the standard. Of course you could also raise a standard bred Catalana, or Andalusian, or similar breed and get equal meat production and egg production if not better compared to the hatchery bird, while also helping maintain the rich poultry history.

4. No matter what type of stock you start with, hatchery or standard bred, if you do not know how to select for production qualities in your birds, and how to manage them properly, you will either never have good results, or you will lose the good results that are there.

5. Really stressing without proper management and nutrition you will not see the productive results you could. So many are fixated on replicating what the birds did 100+ years ago. WHY? Would you want a car that has the capabilities of 100 years ago? With modern nutrition and breeding practices even our standard bred birds should be able to leave the old timers and their birds in the DUST. The poultry world is so resistant to change it's almost frightening. There is zero reason for it.

Now my own tangent that came to mind while writing this post, nutrition. We need to realize two things, three actually. First, nutrition knowledge has advanced since the early 1900's. Second, what is produced commercially feed wise is the bare minimum for highly specialized commercial birds of today, vegetarian diets made of cheap ingredients. Third, you are not doing any favors following some thrown together recipe or supplement program some amateur has thrown together on the internet. Or basing our feeding program on what some farmer did in 1900. Balancing a diet is no joke and when not done properly can have a severe negative impact. Nutrient balance, both micro and macro, amino acid balance are all critically important to really push our birds to what they do. If you don't have the resources to find a true nutritionist (not a hobby nutritionist, see the degree) to help formulate a diet, try using gamebird feed for standard bred birds, it's far closer to the needs of our real birds than the stuff that is made with the drastically different commercial birds in mind, and don't mess with it by throwing in a bunch of odd stuff. That's fine for sustaining birds and all, but to really push production? Not so much.

I'll get off my little soapbox here. Hopefully the first 5 points are helpful and result in some good further discussion.

Good post Matt.

1. Other than the production extremes, I have seen no real difference in longevity. I do agree that ideally they should. I started with hatchery birds, so have seen both sides. I had no problems with longevity with either. I have experienced egg bound hens etc. with both. I have seen these things more in one line than another, so I do believe in breeding for longevity. I am just not aware of any intelligent evaluation between the two. Ask 20 people and get 20 different experiences.
I do agree with selecting birds with good type for the purpose, and it's benefit to us and the birds.

2. I agree that you cannot make a judgment on an experience or two. It helps to know who is who and what is what. The birds tell on us. The proof in the pudding kind of thing. Of course this only applies to those that have had them long enough to hurt or help them.

3. There are very few examples coming out of hatcheries that retain the size they should have for the breed. Use it or lose it. Large Fowl tend to get smaller and bantams larger unless pressure is put on this point. I do not know that they do or if there is any incentive for them to do it.

4. I started with feed store chicks like many. I learned a lot about inheritance and heritability. Now with Standard bred birds, it is brought to a new level and challenge. It takes time to get a feel for it. It takes time to get to know a breed, a color, and even know what you have. The reality is few will actually evaluate individuals and make informed decisions. Hopefully there will be more and more along the way. Some of these large fowl are in better shape concerning population 10 years ago, but will this boom in interest last? I do not know that it will. Some of these breeds were and are teetering as it was.
I watched the New Hampshire benefit from new enthusiasm, when before there was not anything good to be had. It would not take much for them to slip into obscurity. I see them going downhill fast except with a few. They could be a here today gone tomorrow thing. I only know of three breeding flocks of "actual" Catalanas in the entire country. It would not take much for them to slip from sight.

5. Hard to debate good feed and good management.

 

[gjensen]

I'm sorry, I really didn't make myself clear. While we are absolutely prepared to carry on a conformation program with regard to infrastructure, neither of us are set at this point to provide the emotional treasure that would be required to do the job with total dedication. Jason is still not over his ride through the deserts and escarpments and I'm still not over the stress of worrying about him for the past 12 years.

Once we get ourselves re-charged and properly grounded, I think that new facility will have plenty of room to begin what it was initially built for...all in good time.

You do not have to cull the producers in a production flock either. Just select the best birds for the replacement flock. We can have our cake and eat it to.

Good luck, and have fun heading south.

 

[BGMatt]

This is probably the thread for it, but I did an interview recently for a Urban Chicken podcast talking about my breed, the Langshan, when doublechecking my knowledge of the breed history I found many references to birds hatched in late fall and laying by April, best case scenario that's 6-7 months. Yet many of our "heritage" poultry these days is taking much longer to mature. Why? This shouldn't be happening. Have we just totally ignored the rate of growth in our birds? Is it due to smaller flocks and less of them so the lines are too inbred? Genetics gurus want to chime in on this?

 

[Arielle]

Quote:

Thanks Ron! I did not think of that... lol

I have done this before. It is convenient because the PDF file can be accessed easily on your computer--or if you use a cloud storage, on Smart Phones and Tablets.
Thanks ROn for pointing this out. Having the complete instructions, step by step is ciritcal to canning safely. If you are like me, chickadoodles, I need the paper copy infront of me. AN important point it how elevation effects the p roccessing time and pressure.

I always read it thru step by step EVERY TIME.

 

[ronott1]

Thanks ROn for pointing this out. Having the complete instructions, step by step is ciritcal to canning safely. If you are like me, chickadoodles, I need the paper copy infront of me. AN important point it how elevation effects the p roccessing time and pressure.

I always read it thru step by step EVERY TIME.

I do that on my tablet--just keep it out of the water!

I have a nook color that is three years old.

 

[gjensen]

This is probably the thread for it, but I did an interview recently for a Urban Chicken podcast talking about my breed, the Langshan, when doublechecking my knowledge of the breed history I found many references to birds hatched in late fall and laying by April, best case scenario that's 6-7 months. Yet many of our "heritage" poultry these days is taking much longer to mature. Why? This shouldn't be happening. Have we just totally ignored the rate of growth in our birds? Is it due to smaller flocks and less of them so the lines are too inbred? Genetics gurus want to chime in on this?

I read someone asking advice on this matter today. On another thread. A general response was that the adult bird was judged in a cage. In other words it does not matter. That is why. The prevailing attitude of that crowd. Not in no way an indictment of every individual, but unfortunately that view is dominant one. The feeling is that they are all ornamentals now. It is use it or lose it though. We don't use it and then lose it.

These birds have not been to work in so long that they have "forgotten how to work".

To be a proponent of Standard bred fowl, and espouse their productive potential is to stand in a lonely place. That is if we are honest with ourselves.

I brought this up indirectly on another thread recently. It just seams a shame to put so much money, time, and effort into something for it to end up being worth nothing. Or not to have accomplished anything at all. Especially when the pieces and parts to put something together is right before our eyes. We get so narrow focused that we cannot see past our own foreheads. We box ourselves in.
This is especially true for breeds that were popular for their production qualities more than known in the show room.

I truly do not have an issue with a purely ornamental strain that excels. To me they are a genetic resource, but I would not be happy with it.

Sometimes you have to make a mess to fix a mess. Sometimes it is not necessary. It takes wisdom to know which is which.

The reference you made to your breed's "historic" status is a feel that I like to get for the birds. Outside of production extremes that carry birds away from breed type, and historic hype.
The idea of once productive farm breed reaching point of lay in 10 months makes me feel a little queezy. Why? It does not have to be that way, but if that is where we are, we have a long road ahead. If that is where I am at, I am looking for an outcross. Something that can turn it around for me, even if I have to make a mess to fix a mess.

I think it is too simple to not do. It is easy to judge rates of growth, point of lay, when they molt, how long it takes them to return to lying, who picks up wen in the spring, etc. We do not have to get fancy about it. Just hatch a few more than we would otherwise and cull a little harder. Chicken tastes good.

We have a tendency to drift towards extremes. I think the truth is in the middle. Some basic assessment principles, and pick the best typed birds, then the best colored birds, from the productive lot of them. Select them like a practical farmer that loves his birds, breed. Pretty simple I think.

 

[Arielle]

Well that thread got busy in a hurry, just some general points.

1. Standard bred birds will generally do lay longer and produce more eggs over a lifetime (regardless of the finite number of eggs thing) because they have the larger bodies and normal growth rates that the laying process is not as much of a strain on the anatomy of a bird. I have never had an issue of prolapse of eggbound or any other laying related health issue since I ditched my last hatchery birds almost 20 years ago.

2. I would not judge standard bred birds based on difficulties experienced by "breeders" here on BYC. Issues such as laying and fertility are often a line by line and breeder by breeder situation. It is very rare someone that knows what they're doing breeds themselves into a corner, standard bred or not.

3. All birds and breeds have their purpose, but if meat is truly part of one of your goals, you won't get much off a commercially bred "dual purpose" fowl. Not when the breeds are half the size they should be which means half the meat they should have. Of course this is also part of wise breed selection. A hatchery Jersey Giant for instance might weigh in at 7 lbs, and that's plenty of meat for many so they serve that purpose just as well as the 13 lb birds called for by the standard. Of course you could also raise a standard bred Catalana, or Andalusian, or similar breed and get equal meat production and egg production if not better compared to the hatchery bird, while also helping maintain the rich poultry history.

4. No matter what type of stock you start with, hatchery or standard bred, if you do not know how to select for production qualities in your birds, and how to manage them properly, you will either never have good results, or you will lose the good results that are there.

5. Really stressing without proper management and nutrition you will not see the productive results you could. So many are fixated on replicating what the birds did 100+ years ago. WHY? Would you want a car that has the capabilities of 100 years ago? With modern nutrition and breeding practices even our standard bred birds should be able to leave the old timers and their birds in the DUST. The poultry world is so resistant to change it's almost frightening. There is zero reason for it.

Now my own tangent that came to mind while writing this post, nutrition. We need to realize two things, three actually. First, nutrition knowledge has advanced since the early 1900's. Second, what is produced commercially feed wise is the bare minimum for highly specialized commercial birds of today, vegetarian diets made of cheap ingredients. Third, you are not doing any favors following some thrown together recipe or supplement program some amateur has thrown together on the internet. Or basing our feeding program on what some farmer did in 1900. Balancing a diet is no joke and when not done properly can have a severe negative impact. Nutrient balance, both micro and macro, amino acid balance are all critically important to really push our birds to what they do. If you don't have the resources to find a true nutritionist (not a hobby nutritionist, see the degree) to help formulate a diet, try using gamebird feed for standard bred birds, it's far closer to the needs of our real birds than the stuff that is made with the drastically different commercial birds in mind, and don't mess with it by throwing in a bunch of odd stuff. That's fine for sustaining birds and all, but to really push production? Not so much.

I'll get off my little soapbox here. Hopefully the first 5 points are helpful and result in some good further discussion.

I always read what you take the time to write very carefully. I don't have the experience to offer much, but in reguard to the hobby nutritionist. . . . .

Commercial feeds while a good beginning are not all they are cracked up to be. Much nutrition is lacking in the way of fresh greens and veg material and the micronutritents that are not even adopted by the RDA-- the RDA is a very old concept, and is the premis of balancing ratins for the farm animal. (Using the RDA for each animal type). Real food is far more nutritious than heat processed grains fortified by vitamins/mineral packs.I'm not against the commercial feeds at all; rather they are a good begiining for anyone getting into raising animals. BUT the nutrition can be improved to far better than that.

I had a vet tell me that my old horse had cushings; I kindly disagreed but would take extra care in evaluating him in the spring during shed. All winter I worried that I had missed something; He was my old man that I had bought at 3 mo old before I had married. COme spring I watched him carefully, and the other horses. . . he shed out as fast or faster than the other younger horses. HE did not have cushings. Cushings is a metabolic disease that is created in horses by feeding them a diet high in grains-- my horse had been fed a diet high in hay. THe vet had made the error of assuming I fed like everyone else. For over 25 years he has been eating the way a horse should be eating: hay, and some fortified pellets. And living out on pasture , not stuck in a stall.

I love what you have to write , and will always take the time to thoroughly read what you have taken the time to write, but I do think nutrition for animals is as woefully behind what it should be as human nutrition is. I do think there is a lot of value in building diets made of items that are fresh and green, or a close as can be obtained to that,to be included in the diets. Even my kids often have a salad for breakfast, as do I. ANd cold cereals are long gone from this house.

I am not a debater; just stating my opionon on how I feed and why.

 

[southernmomma]

Well that thread got busy in a hurry, just some general points.

1. Standard bred birds will generally do lay longer and produce more eggs over a lifetime (regardless of the finite number of eggs thing) because they have the larger bodies and normal growth rates that the laying process is not as much of a strain on the anatomy of a bird. I have never had an issue of prolapse of eggbound or any other laying related health issue since I ditched my last hatchery birds almost 20 years ago.

2. I would not judge standard bred birds based on difficulties experienced by "breeders" here on BYC. Issues such as laying and fertility are often a line by line and breeder by breeder situation. It is very rare someone that knows what they're doing breeds themselves into a corner, standard bred or not.

3. All birds and breeds have their purpose, but if meat is truly part of one of your goals, you won't get much off a commercially bred "dual purpose" fowl. Not when the breeds are half the size they should be which means half the meat they should have. Of course this is also part of wise breed selection. A hatchery Jersey Giant for instance might weigh in at 7 lbs, and that's plenty of meat for many so they serve that purpose just as well as the 13 lb birds called for by the standard. Of course you could also raise a standard bred Catalana, or Andalusian, or similar breed and get equal meat production and egg production if not better compared to the hatchery bird, while also helping maintain the rich poultry history.

4. No matter what type of stock you start with, hatchery or standard bred, if you do not know how to select for production qualities in your birds, and how to manage them properly, you will either never have good results, or you will lose the good results that are there.

5. Really stressing without proper management and nutrition you will not see the productive results you could. So many are fixated on replicating what the birds did 100+ years ago. WHY? Would you want a car that has the capabilities of 100 years ago? With modern nutrition and breeding practices even our standard bred birds should be able to leave the old timers and their birds in the DUST. The poultry world is so resistant to change it's almost frightening. There is zero reason for it.

Now my own tangent that came to mind while writing this post, nutrition. We need to realize two things, three actually. First, nutrition knowledge has advanced since the early 1900's. Second, what is produced commercially feed wise is the bare minimum for highly specialized commercial birds of today, vegetarian diets made of cheap ingredients. Third, you are not doing any favors following some thrown together recipe or supplement program some amateur has thrown together on the internet. Or basing our feeding program on what some farmer did in 1900. Balancing a diet is no joke and when not done properly can have a severe negative impact. Nutrient balance, both micro and macro, amino acid balance are all critically important to really push our birds to what they do. If you don't have the resources to find a true nutritionist (not a hobby nutritionist, see the degree) to help formulate a diet, try using gamebird feed for standard bred birds, it's far closer to the needs of our real birds than the stuff that is made with the drastically different commercial birds in mind, and don't mess with it by throwing in a bunch of odd stuff. That's fine for sustaining birds and all, but to really push production? Not so much.

I'll get off my little soapbox here. Hopefully the first 5 points are helpful and result in some good further discussion.

Matt I love this post. It makes me think. It raises two questions that I have not found good information on.

1. Do hatchery birds not have the genetic potential of standard bred birds. If not, why? If so, can it be realized?
2. I need to understand how or why poultry nutrition is often touted as something best left to professionals. I have seen miraculous recoveries made with natural, whole food, species appropriate diets. I'm not challenging you or your stance but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it. I will wonder aloud how poultry flourished before the advent of a commercialized food chain. Are we perhaps better served by our greater understanding of whole, unprocessed food sources but still led by the nose by an industry lining its own pockets?

Again, not a challenge....I come in peace

but I would dearly love some light shed on this, if only for my own education.

M

 

[ronott1]

Matt I love this post. It makes me think. It raises two questions that I have not found good information on.

1. Do hatchery birds not have the genetic potential of standard bred birds. If not, why? If so, can it be realized?
2. I need to understand how or why poultry nutrition is often touted as something best left to professionals. I have seen miraculous recoveries made with natural, whole food, species appropriate diets. I'm not challenging you or your stance but I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it. I will wonder aloud how poultry flourished before the advent of a commercialized food chain. Are we perhaps better served by our greater understanding of whole, unprocessed food sources but still led by the nose by an industry lining its own pockets?

Again, not a challenge....I come in peace

but I would dearly love some light shed on this, if only for my own education.

M

It likely depends on the Breed and the Hatchery. Some Breeds have been crossed with Leghorns at hatcheries to increase egg production at the expense of carcass size. Other Breeds have been ignored for a long time. McMurray for instance is said to have some of the nicest SG Dorkings available. Still, it would take a lot of years to get them back up to size.

(notice I did not say to SOP)