BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[LindaB220]

The English liked the Reds over Light Sussex, and they were quite successful with them. Certain table strains were used, and produced males good for the table and productive layers.

Rhode Island Reds over Rhode Island Whites. I used production reds over single combed white utility Rhodes, and I liked the cross.

The NH x Barred Rocks were popular. As was Reds over White Rocks.

A good meat strain of NHs over a heavy Bared Plymouth Rock strain would be a good cross.

I still think that using a commercial sex linked male could be used to great advantage over a heavier bird. Lets say Jeremy's Rocks for example. They are a meat strain. Concerning utility, they are a cost effective way to improve a flock. You can about get the darn things for free. They do not have a lot of flesh on them, but they grow very fast.

It might be worth noting for other than the crosses that emphasized meat, lighter males were often used. It was thought that many of the males lighter in weight made for better sires. In general I don't buy that, but it might have been true for some strains. It is just not that simple.

For people that can maintain two breeds well, these traditional simple crosses can be used to an advantage.

Great info Thanks

 

[gjensen]

I understand the creativity part of it and wanting to experiment. Most of the time though, I don't find the creative desire as the reason for someone wanting to experiment with breeding, particularly cross breeding. Usually it is a lack of knowledge - which is the case for most people. Or it's people that don't understand that there is no chicken on the planet that is going to meet their long list of expectations and they are going to have to compromise on their list of requirements for a chicken to meet, or suck it up and pay more money or do more work in order to get to where they want to be with chickens.

I agree, that is sometimes the case. There is often a lack of knowledge or experience that leads to breed crossing. I do not think they are hurting anything though. I can't see what harm is in it. Maybe some knowledge and experience would come from the experience.

I know of more than a few knowledgeable and experienced breeders that have created something new, simply because they enjoy tinkering with them. Also the challenge. Some of the results I have been impressed with.
I enjoy tinkering, but decided my project was going to be the Catalanas. They are enough project for me, I assure you. I like that they fit my ideals concerning their productivity etc. A rare useful breed, that for whatever reason never caught on.

I do wish that more would realize that there is a surplus of rare and unique breeds that are all of the project most could handle. Both beautiful and productive. Also practical. I do not understand why these birds get overlooked by so many, other than someone is not selling them with a story. An effort of this sort matters and the effort would be worth something if it was successful. Not everyone is a preservationist though. Some just want eggs, and that is all they will ever want. There is nothing wrong with that.

I guess I am remembering where I come from in the hobby, and like to tinker myself.

The only thing that bothers me, is those that are selling inferior birds and promoting them as if they were something special. Then selling them for a lot of money, and people that do not know any better, buy them. Then they think they have something when they do not. The hype is what turns my stomach. A lot of people cannot look at a bird and tell whether or not it is anything good. They just see a "pretty color".

 

[gjensen]

The EO Basque are very friendly and smart.

The thing about the Basque Pita Pinta is that they were working farm breeds that were saved in the 1980s. They are still a good breed for that kind of thing, which is what this thread is about. The Pita Pintas lay more eggs than the Basque and they have bigger cockerels.

They are both very nice.

And that is what I like about the Catalana, maybe Spain's premier utility breed. It does not surprise me that these other breeds perform well, when mine do as well. The birds I have are from Peru. The Catalana was very popular in Latin America. From Cuba and down through Argentina. They were not popular just because they were pretty. They were good birds to own.

The New Hampshire is very popular in Spain.

 

[gjensen]

But the reason I got into chickens was to have fun. I'm retired and just playing. No particular goals or plans. I'm not showing or really selling so why not experiment.

Just have fun. That is what a lot of people are doing. Just having fun. Do as you please.

 

[gjensen]

Geez g! Talk about a great story~ I've read a couple such stories and had a couple people relate their stories to me privately and I have noticed that the theme seems to be people finding their breed in an organic manner. Meaning the breed found them almost.

Just choosing a breed and thinking you'll stick with it might be naïve....it would be like throwing a dart at the world map and going to live where it landed *forever*, without any connection to the region, knowledge of the language or taste of the culture. Arbitrary decisions rarely stick, and they shouldn't. That's not to say that a decision made now on a breed isn't a sincere decision, but might best be acknowledged as a starting place.

I guess my point is that I support the notion of experimentation. It's not hurting anyone, is hopefully educational, and if it brings a deeper understanding of poultry husbandry, genetics and what a successful breeding program looks like then that person is more likely to settle into a more focused project~ it's the chicken version of sowing wild oats

I'm a teeny bit jealous of Linda truth be told~ she's obviously got the set up for a large number of chickens and has decided to go for it.

M

It was two long. Their was two points. That tinkering and experimenting taught me a lot. The other was that I came to appreciate how rare some breeds were, and how poor of shape many were in.

 

[bnjrob]

Perhaps you have been hanging out on the wrong threads?

ETA: I can not for the life of me, understand why anyone who has a life of their own, worries so much about what someone else does.

Linda is my friend (in fact) and I support any cross she decides to make and don't see that she has to explain herself to anyone.

Yet...she has already attempted to make an explanation that most folks have accepted and moved on.

Apparently I did a poor job of explaining myself and have been misinterpreted. There is no one way to raise chickens and people are free to do as they please.

My point is that many people bring up cross breeding as a way to fix problems - not because they just want to play around and see what happens.

This is a problem for people that have specific goals they are trying to reach, because there may be other, better solutions to their problems that will not throw a whole new set of genetics into the mix. Throwing in such different genetics into the mix because you're trying to fix one particular problem quickly, can backfire because you just don't know what is going to turn out and you may not even be able to fix the original problem and then you have new problems on top of the old ones to deal with. Chicken breeding isn't as simple as Mendel's pea plant genetics. Newbies have a knowledge deficit and are apt to not fully understand the implications of their breeding choices.

Until someone has actually done several year's work on a serious breeding program where they can see how the genetics work together and correlate outcomes with their breeding choices, people are at high risk for winding up disappointed and setting back their breeding program. For people that are only doing it for fun, such things aren't a problem. But for people that are on a timeline and/or for whom money is an issue, having a setback in breeding from a poor breeding choice, it's more serious for them.

My comments are based on what I've seen over the last few years with newbies coming in with ideas that don't work as well as they think they do, and then they get upset when someone with more experience tries to help them make better choices. I know, I've been there as the person thinking if I could do something a particular way with chickens it would be better and faster - I was wrong and I am glad that I listened to more experienced people instead of getting upset that they didn't like my ideas. I'm seeing a trend of people asking questions and wanting opinions but when they don't like the opinion, they get upset and start complaining instead of making note of things and quietly moving on. Asking questions and seeking help and input is useless if people get their knickers in a knot every time they don't like the answers they are given. In that case - why bother even seeking other opinions if their mind is already made up?

 

[bnjrob]

I agree, that is sometimes the case. There is often a lack of knowledge or experience that leads to breed crossing. I do not think they are hurting anything though. I can't see what harm is in it. Maybe some knowledge and experience would come from the experience.

I know of more than a few knowledgeable and experienced breeders that have created something new, simply because they enjoy tinkering with them. Also the challenge. Some of the results I have been impressed with.
I enjoy tinkering, but decided my project was going to be the Catalanas. They are enough project for me, I assure you. I like that they fit my ideals concerning their productivity etc. A rare useful breed, that for whatever reason never caught on.

I do wish that more would realize that there is a surplus of rare and unique breeds that are all of the project most could handle. Both beautiful and productive. Also practical. I do not understand why these birds get overlooked by so many, other than someone is not selling them with a story. An effort of this sort matters and the effort would be worth something if it was successful. Not everyone is a preservationist though. Some just want eggs, and that is all they will ever want. There is nothing wrong with that.

I guess I am remembering where I come from in the hobby, and like to tinker myself.

The only thing that bothers me, is those that are selling inferior birds and promoting them as if they were something special. Then selling them for a lot of money, and people that do not know any better, buy them. Then they think they have something when they do not. The hype is what turns my stomach. A lot of people cannot look at a bird and tell whether or not it is anything good. They just see a "pretty color".

Agree with everything.

Devil's advocate - who's to say what is or is not an inferior bird? You have an idea, I have an idea, and other people have their ideas. It's all about perspective.

 

[gjensen]

Agree with everything.

Devil's advocate - who's to say what is or is not an inferior bird? You have an idea, I have an idea, and other people have their ideas. It's all about perspective.

That is right. What is best or ideal for one, is not for another.

Perspective is where we come from more than it is where we are heading. Perspective changes over time based on where we were and are. We can only see so far ahead.

 

[Turk Raphael]

Apparently I did a poor job of explaining myself and have been misinterpreted. There is no one way to raise chickens and people are free to do as they please.

My point is that many people bring up cross breeding as a way to fix problems - not because they just want to play around and see what happens.

This is a problem for people that have specific goals they are trying to reach, because there may be other, better solutions to their problems that will not throw a whole new set of genetics into the mix. Throwing in such different genetics into the mix because you're trying to fix one particular problem quickly, can backfire because you just don't know what is going to turn out and you may not even be able to fix the original problem and then you have new problems on top of the old ones to deal with. Chicken breeding isn't as simple as Mendel's pea plant genetics. Newbies have a knowledge deficit and are apt to not fully understand the implications of their breeding choices.

Until someone has actually done several year's work on a serious breeding program where they can see how the genetics work together and correlate outcomes with their breeding choices, people are at high risk for winding up disappointed and setting back their breeding program. For people that are only doing it for fun, such things aren't a problem. But for people that are on a timeline and/or for whom money is an issue, having a setback in breeding from a poor breeding choice, it's more serious for them.

My comments are based on what I've seen over the last few years with newbies coming in with ideas that don't work as well as they think they do, and then they get upset when someone with more experience tries to help them make better choices. I know, I've been there as the person thinking if I could do something a particular way with chickens it would be better and faster - I was wrong and I am glad that I listened to more experienced people instead of getting upset that they didn't like my ideas. I'm seeing a trend of people asking questions and wanting opinions but when they don't like the opinion, they get upset and start complaining instead of making note of things and quietly moving on. Asking questions and seeking help and input is useless if people get their knickers in a knot every time they don't like the answers they are given. In that case - why bother even seeking other opinions if their mind is already made up?

OOPS...I missed the part where LindaG200 sought anyone's opinion.

Heck, I just thought she was musing about what she was going to do while enjoying retirement.

One thing that seems to be missing in lots of discussions about chickens and what someone desires in their own breeding program. To me, chickens have a very short shelf-life and if someone crosses two "pure breeds", the effect on either is transitory at most. They mature at a rather young point and live about 1/3rd the span of the average mutt dog and few actual fanciers will be affected by their actions and none will be buying any birds from them.

Enjoy your chickens Linda...I'm enjoying my little meat birds, knowing full well they are doomed to the hatchet.

 

[seventreesfarm]

I understand the creativity part of it and wanting to experiment. Most of the time though, I don't find the creative desire as the reason for someone wanting to experiment with breeding, particularly cross breeding. Usually it is a lack of knowledge - which is the case for most people. Or it's people that don't understand that there is no chicken on the planet that is going to meet their long list of expectations and they are going to have to compromise on their list of requirements for a chicken to meet, or suck it up and pay more money or do more work in order to get to where they want to be with chickens.

Funny, I've been keeping chickens for 40+ years, so I wouldn't really say a lack of knowledge is why I am experimenting with crossbreeding. In fact, the more I learn about chicken genetics, the more I want to experiment. I was very successful at improving bloodlines of some rare finches a few decades ago, and never forgot how satisfying it is to work with animals in a way that brings out the best in their progeny.

I've done the heritage/rare breed thing too. It used to be that whenever we wanted to add to our farm, be it new species or just new breed, we'd first go over the ALBC list to see if one of the critical breeds would work with our plans. I won't name any names, but we bought hatching eggs from two different people here on BYC that were supposed to be esteemed New Hampshire breeders. I needed to bump up my flock, and after talking with these people decided it might be a good idea to work with this breed. Once the shipped egg crummy hatch rate was dealt with, I had a few birds from both strains. Unfortunately they must have been from the junk pen, because one strain turned out ugly. Just plain ugly. The other strain yielded 2 okay hens, one of which prolapsed, the other is still in my flock, laying a small egg and not really standing out as a productive hen. I sold the nice looking roo I had from this experiment because I just don't have time or space to breed out other people's junk, and I don't want to spend any more money on shipped eggs or buying someone's culls.

I also don't want any warm climate breeds, no white egg layers, nothing scrawny or flighty. I've worked with maybe 10 or 12 breeds over the years that fit my parameters, and that has been interesting and educational. There are plenty of people devoted to those breeds though, with different priorities than mine. Given my limited space, I don't want to sacrifice the experience of trying out my own breeding program to make clones of existing breeds.

Anyway, I'm hoping this discussion will involve ideas for breeding productive chickens, no matter what breed or cross, not just certain pure/rare/heritage breeds. I'm looking to learn something I don't already know, not get a newb lecture. I'm sure I'm not the only person with this goal....