BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

I want it understood that I perceived nothing negative from bnjrob's posts.

We gain more from a challenging exchange than we will hearing what we want to hear. I have gained a lot from my thinking being challenged. It is easy to get defensive, and I do sometimes. It is better if we take it in stride, and move ahead.

The internet offers an exchange of a lot of information, both good and bad. If we pay attention, some things that did not make sense before, will later.

Breeding poultry is a lost art for most of us. We are re learning how to do it. Personally, I find the fun in the doing. I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge and striving to meet a goal.

One think that we talk little of is actually breeding the birds. Breeding is the first word in the thread's title. I think we talk less about the breeding because few actually do it. There are not many real breeders of birds. It appears that even with the increase of interest in poultry, few are actually picking it up and doing it. If we hear from one that is, we should at least listen. We might learn something even if we do not like how it sounds. Not all of us use smilies, and the posts come across a little rough around the edges. It dos not mean that someone means any harm.

 

[seventreesfarm]

OOPS...I missed the part where LindaG200 sought anyone's opinion.

Heck, I just thought she was musing about what she was going to do while enjoying retirement.

One thing that seems to be missing in lots of discussions about chickens and what someone desires in their own breeding program. To me, chickens have a very short shelf-life and if someone crosses two "pure breeds", the effect on either is transitory at most. They mature at a rather young point and live about 1/3rd the span of the average mutt dog and few actual fanciers will be affected by their actions and none will be buying any birds from them.

Enjoy your chickens Linda...I'm enjoying my little meat birds, knowing full well they are doomed to the hatchet.

It's been interesting getting to the 3rd generation of crosses and backcrosses with my flocks. With so many variables in the genome, there is a lot of trial and error and taking notes. The short lifespan, and breeding cycle is helpful in this though. I only have to wait about 6 months to see what my experiments yield. The hard part is hanging on to promising cockerels long enough to see what their sisters lay. I made the mistake of selling off a roo because I didn't like his personality. Now his daughters are producing amazing eggs and amazing offspring, and i would have gotten a few more hatches from him if I could.

Live and learn...and a lot more to learn when the genetics are all mixed up.

 

[gjensen]

It's been interesting getting to the 3rd generation of crosses and backcrosses with my flocks. With so many variables in the genome, there is a lot of trial and error and taking notes. The short lifespan, and breeding cycle is helpful in this though. I only have to wait about 6 months to see what my experiments yield. The hard part is hanging on to promising cockerels long enough to see what their sisters lay. I made the mistake of selling off a roo because I didn't like his personality. Now his daughters are producing amazing eggs and amazing offspring, and i would have gotten a few more hatches from him if I could.

Live and learn...and a lot more to learn when the genetics are all mixed up.

The more challenging the project, the more there is to learn. Especially if there is a well defined goal. Then having the gumption to stick it out over time.

I am not interested in breeding excessively nervous and flighty birds, or man fighters. Neither are a pleasure to own and the psychological traits are heritable. I have a wide tolerance for personalities, accept when there are a few screws loose upstairs. I would not call that responsible breeding. To me it is similar to a serious structural fault.

One of the challenges I have with breeding is that there is never the perfect bird. Every one of them has something wrong with them. The perfection that will never be had is the challenge I guess.

 

[gjensen]

You guys have fun. There is nothing for me to gain by continuing in this discussion. Take care.

 

[bnjrob]

OOPS...I missed the part where LindaG200 sought anyone's opinion.

Heck, I just thought she was musing about what she was going to do while enjoying retirement.

One thing that seems to be missing in lots of discussions about chickens and what someone desires in their own breeding program. To me, chickens have a very short shelf-life and if someone crosses two "pure breeds", the effect on either is transitory at most. They mature at a rather young point and live about 1/3rd the span of the average mutt dog and few actual fanciers will be affected by their actions and none will be buying any birds from them.

Enjoy your chickens Linda...I'm enjoying my little meat birds, knowing full well they are doomed to the hatchet.

The conversation actually started with Linda soliciting opinions on crossbreeding the two kinds of chickens she has on the way and went from there.

Sounds like you are coming from the perspective of fast in, fast out, without the same amount of time, effort, and money that more serious breeders invest in their breeding programs. That isn't bad, it is just different. But it can make it hard to understand the perspective of people that breed for more than just a fun hobby or to simply get fresh meat that didn't come from the store.

Chickens can live for a decade and lines of well bred birds can still be productive beyond the usual 2-3 years of usefulness of most hatchery stock.

When you're talking about standard bred "heritage" birds, they are traditionally slower to mature and fully develop than your usual hatchery stock. They also have to meet specific criteria of their breeder. So a set back because of a wrong breeding choice means more than a year trying to fix the problem. You have the first year of seeing how the birds grow out and if they meet your criteria. Then with the next hatching season, you try to fix the problem from the previous year's hatching and then you have to wait to see how those birds turn out. So you're already two years down the road, IF you caught the problem in the first year it occurred. And there is no guarantee that you are going to be able to fix the problem with the next season's hatches.

If you wind up with droopy wings and pinched tails in your hatches, and you have people on a waiting list to buy well-typed birds without droopy wings or pinched tails - that's a problem. It takes time to fix those flaws and if you have income tied up in your birds, or you have little money to spare and can't afford to make mistakes, it can be costly to have to spend a year or more trying to fix a problem.

If like you say, the birds have a short shelf life and you're buying replacements for them every year or two - no you aren't really going to be affected by poor breeding choices. But for those people who are keeping their chickens longer than that, they will see the results of bad breeding choices. Some people think that only show breeders are keeping their birds a long time, but more and more people are wanting to get chickens that they can keep and perpetuate their homestead flock without having to buy replacements. In which case they also will see the affects of poor breeding choices. They may not breed to the SOP, but if they don't pay attention to certain things, they can wind up with chickens that have poor health, that lay poorly, have lousy meat, don't go broody anymore, are poor foragers, etc.

People who are only having fun with their chickens are at a different place than people with more serious breeding programs. What adversely affects a serious breeder with well-defined goals is likely nothing at all to the person who is replacing their foundation flock at a fast pace or is just looking for fun and some eye candy in the yard. It just depends on what the short and long term goals each person has as to how bad a breeding/husbandry mistake can be.

 

[bnjrob]

Funny, I've been keeping chickens for 40+ years, so I wouldn't really say a lack of knowledge is why I am experimenting with crossbreeding. In fact, the more I learn about chicken genetics, the more I want to experiment. I was very successful at improving bloodlines of some rare finches a few decades ago, and never forgot how satisfying it is to work with animals in a way that brings out the best in their progeny.

I've done the heritage/rare breed thing too. It used to be that whenever we wanted to add to our farm, be it new species or just new breed, we'd first go over the ALBC list to see if one of the critical breeds would work with our plans. I won't name any names, but we bought hatching eggs from two different people here on BYC that were supposed to be esteemed New Hampshire breeders. I needed to bump up my flock, and after talking with these people decided it might be a good idea to work with this breed. Once the shipped egg crummy hatch rate was dealt with, I had a few birds from both strains. Unfortunately they must have been from the junk pen, because one strain turned out ugly. Just plain ugly. The other strain yielded 2 okay hens, one of which prolapsed, the other is still in my flock, laying a small egg and not really standing out as a productive hen. I sold the nice looking roo I had from this experiment because I just don't have time or space to breed out other people's junk, and I don't want to spend any more money on shipped eggs or buying someone's culls.

I also don't want any warm climate breeds, no white egg layers, nothing scrawny or flighty. I've worked with maybe 10 or 12 breeds over the years that fit my parameters, and that has been interesting and educational. There are plenty of people devoted to those breeds though, with different priorities than mine. Given my limited space, I don't want to sacrifice the experience of trying out my own breeding program to make clones of existing breeds.

Anyway, I'm hoping this discussion will involve ideas for breeding productive chickens, no matter what breed or cross, not just certain pure/rare/heritage breeds. I'm looking to learn something I don't already know, not get a newb lecture. I'm sure I'm not the only person with this goal....

Obviously not everyone that wants to experiment and cross breed has a knowledge deficit. But the majority of people I run into are usually newbies that are newer than me that have a chicken problem and they are unaware of all the solutions available to them and think that cross breeding is the answer.

One thing I have learned is that it doesn't matter how good the parents look, unless you buy older birds so you can see how they are turning out- there is a much higher chance of getting a lot of birds that aren't the quality you were expecting. Just because someone breeds "show quality" birds that have won awards does not mean that all of their offspring are going to come out show quality. I do have a problem with breeders that tout selling "show quality" birds to people, and yet they sell eggs and chicks. They are doing it to sell a product and a lot of people don't realize that out of 100 chicks hatched from show wining parents, you may only get a handful (or less) of "show quality" offspring.

 

[Turk Raphael]

I want it understood that I perceived nothing negative from bnjrob's posts.

We gain more from a challenging exchange than we will hearing what we want to hear. I have gained a lot from my thinking being challenged. It is easy to get defensive, and I do sometimes. It is better if we take it in stride, and move ahead.

The internet offers an exchange of a lot of information, both good and bad. If we pay attention, some things that did not make sense before, will later.

Breeding poultry is a lost art for most of us. We are re learning how to do it. Personally, I find the fun in the doing. I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge and striving to meet a goal.

One think that we talk little of is actually breeding the birds. Breeding is the first word in the thread's title. I think we talk less about the breeding because few actually do it. There are not many real breeders of birds. It appears that even with the increase of interest in poultry, few are actually picking it up and doing it. If we hear from one that is, we should at least listen. We might learn something even if we do not like how it sounds. Not all of us use smilies, and the posts come across a little rough around the edges. It dos not mean that someone means any harm.

Well of course you don't see anything negative and smiley faces and such do-dads have nothing to do with it. We might each see what we want to see, based upon past experiences and discussions with another poster but what I saw was one poster refusing to let something go that was not meant to be brought up for debate..To me, that's at least borderline badgering.

I'm going to do less posting in this thread because it clearly is populated with some who fail to see the reason this thread was started to begin with and believe me, I saw the post on the first day it was put up. I will put my email address on my profile for those who might want to contact me but I will still monitor this thread and when I see something that I feel is at odds with the clear purpose of this threads initial intent...I will simply bump up the Thread Starter's first post.

We all know what would happen if someone would go to a thread dedicated strictly to the discussion of exhibition birds and the SOP and began giving verbal jabs at those folks who hold those principals so dear...there would be hell to pay. I think badgering a poster for wanting to do a bit of cross breeding is just a step too far.

Turk

 

[Turk Raphael]

After reading several threads on this great site, I've become convinced that there must be many people, lurkers or those who fear being jumped upon, who are simply interested in breeding chickens for production.

Breeding for egg production has been my life-long hobby and I have never disparaged those who breed strictly for conformation, to the Standard of Perfection, as written by folks who had their ideals met and transcribed long ago and I do not intend to begin here.

In fact, I intend to begin a SOP breeding project in the near future, with a breed that will require considerable dedication and commitment. That being said, I have started this thread for those of us that enjoy the fruits of our labors in egg and meat production and who really don't care if our chickens meet some arbitrary set of rules that can at best, be very subjective.

With egg and meat production....the quality can be seen and tasted. No need for a third party to give us their opinions, with the possible exceptions...if we sell eggs or meat birds, we had better produce quality or our efforts will be in vain.

EDIT: This thread is as much for the SOP folks as anyone. I think they need to realize (many do) that production was the primary reason for having chickens 'back in the day'.

Here we go for those with short memories...

 

[Turk Raphael]

Obviously not everyone that wants to experiment and cross breed has a knowledge deficit. But the majority of people I run into are usually newbies that are newer than me that have a chicken problem and they are unaware of all the solutions available to them and think that cross breeding is the answer.

One thing I have learned is that it doesn't matter how good the parents look, unless you buy older birds so you can see how they are turning out- there is a much higher chance of getting a lot of birds that aren't the quality you were expecting. Just because someone breeds "show quality" birds that have won awards does not mean that all of their offspring are going to come out show quality. I do have a problem with breeders that tout selling "show quality" birds to people, and yet they sell eggs and chicks. They are doing it to sell a product and a lot of people don't realize that out of 100 chicks hatched from show wining parents, you may only get a handful (or less) of "show quality" offspring.

AGAIN...this is not a SOP thread.

This is a waste of my time...It's like talking to someone who comes to your door with the intent and determination to sell you on an idea that you clearly have no interest in...You tell them so but they are back in a week or three with the same old stuff.

 

[ronott1]

AGAIN...this is not a SOP thread.

This is a waste of my time...It's like talking to someone who comes to your door with the intent and determination to sell you on an idea that you clearly have no interest in...You tell them so but they are back in a week or three with the same old stuff.

@gjensen @Turk Raphael

The great thing about BYC is the ability to post our points. They are then part of the Internet for Many to view. I really appreciate the different thoughts and ideas on this thread.

The past couple of days have been great on this thread and I want to thank everyone for the helpful and respectful posts on the subject of production and crossing breeds.