BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

AHHHH! I think my 'guard dog' search is over! I'll know for certain this evening. Can't wait to get a puppy.

Also feel very happy about the breeder who we're getting our Buckeyes from. The decision was made on a 'gut feeling' but that works as well as anything sometimes when there are so many choices made available.

Happy on both accounts!!!

Turk

What kind of dog did you get?

 

[gjensen]

I'm at 110 chicks so far this year. I'll probably do one more hatch this year to get some better looking Am roos, then work on trap nesting pullets over the winter. All my project birds should be laying by the time cold weather hits, so I can start looking at production as well as conformation. I did a few hatches over winters, but nothing puts you off of that like a 3 day power outage in 15F temps when you're on day 12 with a loaded incubator. I have a nice generator, but nature has a way of telling you when to give it up.

I only breed pea combs, so that variable is easy to nail down. I prefer beards and feather legs, but right now those factors don't trump tail and general body shape. As I fine tune things, I may start selecting for that. Some of my pullets inherited crowy heads from the Am side, and I want to correct that. I'm also not thrilled with how the Maran head has come out in the mix of some pullets, but I have a few that stand out. Not only will I keep those for breeding, but I will set up a few more pens with their same parents to see how many more 'pretty' ones I can get to have a bigger pool to work with.

All my birds are in a certain color range, so i don't do any further selection there. Leg color is another area I have decisions to make eventually. Since my hatches are either Am over Marans or olive-egger or Marans over Am or olive-egger, I end up with 2 types of offspring. I'm planning to select harder or the ones that more closely overlap and have traits I want. Hopefully start weeding out birds too far on either end of the spectrum.

I guess I don't really think of my project as taking too much time or money, since I always keep a laying flock that pays for itself, one way or another. I might as well entertain myself and learn more while I'm at it. I like reading up on genetics, then 'testing' myself by breeding crosses and seeing how close the results are to what I expected. So many variables though!

It certainly takes that kind of qty. You know, that you really have to do it to do it.

I keep saying that I will do a fall hatch, and I probably will this year. I want to cut some time out of the project. I picture myself doing side mating, and experimental crosses in the fall. Culls are easier to get rid of in the spring with the demand up.

If I was going to build a purely production flock from ground up, I would probably pick a solid color, or an easier color pattern to set. Another option would be to choose starter birds with the color and or pattern. I guess you do what you like and want, but color can add it's challenges, and limit the starting choice. I have to deal with a very difficult color pattern to get right.

You are right. You have to subtract what you would have raised and fed anyways. If you are going to do it, you might as well do want you want to do. It is humbling to figure the cost over five years.

 

[seventreesfarm]

Still, special attention should be given to a superior performing and typed male. He will have more influence overall. Concerning egg laying, he has to be proved through his daughters. Obviously you cannot count his eggs. That is where the idea comes that egg laying ability is passed through the sire. It is true and not true. Because of familial influence, it may be wise to choose good type cockerels from superior performing hens. Then test the cockerels, keeping the cock bird that has the best producing offspring.

That can be hard to do, since it requires keeping back a lot of cockerels to see how his sisters perform. I can see one benefit of hanging on to good stock as long as possible, since that would allow 'recreating' a hatch. If I have a group of pullets that are really standing out, I may have sold off all the males, but at least I can put together another pen with the same parents and keep back likely roos. There are still lots of variables, but at least the chances of getting a good roo based on sisters from a repeat pairing should be better than nothing.

I'll probably have to start doing that soon, and I'm sure glad I keep good records.

It still makes me laugh to be adding roosters to my flocks. So many people got into backyard chickens, but can't have roos or can't take the crowing. It's a treat to be able to do what I need to make good chickens without getting hassled about my roosters.

 

[southernmomma]

Quote:
I have to apologize. I was following the conversation about cross-breeding but have been thinking about two strains that might be bred with differing traits emphasized. So you answered my question, very clearly I will add, but in a context I didn't mean. lol....sorry everyone!

Your answer certainly emphasized the need for experience when entering the cross breeding arena. It does make me wonder though~ if color could be disregarded~ whether one might be further ahead to choose to cross varieties? One variety chosen for a particular strength, the other to compliment it. If they share type, but perhaps one variety is noted for a wonderful temperament while the other is not.

M

 

[southernmomma]

I'm at 110 chicks so far this year. I'll probably do one more hatch this year to get some better looking Am roos, then work on trap nesting pullets over the winter. All my project birds should be laying by the time cold weather hits, so I can start looking at production as well as conformation. I did a few hatches over winters, but nothing puts you off of that like a 3 day power outage in 15F temps when you're on day 12 with a loaded incubator. I have a nice generator, but nature has a way of telling you when to give it up.

I only breed pea combs, so that variable is easy to nail down. I prefer beards and feather legs, but right now those factors don't trump tail and general body shape. As I fine tune things, I may start selecting for that. Some of my pullets inherited crowy heads from the Am side, and I want to correct that. I'm also not thrilled with how the Maran head has come out in the mix of some pullets, but I have a few that stand out. Not only will I keep those for breeding, but I will set up a few more pens with their same parents to see how many more 'pretty' ones I can get to have a bigger pool to work with.

All my birds are in a certain color range, so i don't do any further selection there. Leg color is another area I have decisions to make eventually. Since my hatches are either Am over Marans or olive-egger or Marans over Am or olive-egger, I end up with 2 types of offspring. I'm planning to select harder or the ones that more closely overlap and have traits I want. Hopefully start weeding out birds too far on either end of the spectrum.

I guess I don't really think of my project as taking too much time or money, since I always keep a laying flock that pays for itself, one way or another. I might as well entertain myself and learn more while I'm at it. I like reading up on genetics, then 'testing' myself by breeding crosses and seeing how close the results are to what I expected. So many variables though!

So I'm curious, what are the 2 types and how does it correlate to parentage?

M

 

[southernmomma]

AHHHH! I think my 'guard dog' search is over! I'll know for certain this evening. Can't wait to get a puppy.

Also feel very happy about the breeder who we're getting our Buckeyes from. The decision was made on a 'gut feeling' but that works as well as anything sometimes when there are so many choices made available.

Happy on both accounts!!!

Turk

Yay!
There is nothing sweeter than a new puppy. Although I don't envy you the potty training

M

 

[seventreesfarm]

So I'm curious, what are the 2 types and how does it correlate to parentage?

M

I notice more Ameraucana traits with that as the roo - more consistent pea comb, heavier face feathers, pinchier tails, lighter weight, etc With Marans roos I see blockier body, heavier leg feathering, more Marans shaped head.

I haven't really sat down with my spreadsheet and done a scientific survey though. I will this weekend since I need to round up youngsters for possible auction.

In any case, those are the two types I notice, difference in influences of the 2 parent breeds. I might be mistaken in the roo having more influence in the cross, so it will be interesting to verify that or not.

 

[southernmomma]

Quote:
That is really interesting, worth noting at least. I had hoped to ask the same question of @tony4850 with his hatchery over standard and standard over hatchery....where the greatest "progress" was seen.
I would be interested in seeing your ideal bird sketched out as you mentioned earlier.

M

 

[gjensen]

That can be hard to do, since it requires keeping back a lot of cockerels to see how his sisters perform. I can see one benefit of hanging on to good stock as long as possible, since that would allow 'recreating' a hatch. If I have a group of pullets that are really standing out, I may have sold off all the males, but at least I can put together another pen with the same parents and keep back likely roos. There are still lots of variables, but at least the chances of getting a good roo based on sisters from a repeat pairing should be better than nothing.

I'll probably have to start doing that soon, and I'm sure glad I keep good records.

It still makes me laugh to be adding roosters to my flocks. So many people got into backyard chickens, but can't have roos or can't take the crowing. It's a treat to be able to do what I need to make good chickens without getting hassled about my roosters.

It is hard to do.

You want to see how his daughters perform. Not his sisters.

Not everyone can do it, but you can identify prosperous males over time. I call it proving them. It is more out what they give you than they are.

Also consider keeping as many pullets through complete laying cycle, their molt, and as they are coming back into lay. In other words, it is my opinion that it helps to know who waited longest to molt, and came back into lay fastest after starting the molt. Then who comes into full lay earliest in the spring. They are often the same birds. Length of lay, so to speak. Some of these birds have 2-4 weeks more laying time than others, depending on what you re working with. Could mean 8-20 more eggs per year. We would certainly frown on the first bird to molt, and takes twice as long to molt as another.

The little things add up, and is often were the Standard bred birds are lacking. These points are long forgotten. These little things can be the difference between 170 and 200 eggs per year.

Like you said, more males is good. The old advice is keep half as much more than what you need. If you have four families, that might mean 6 males.

 

[seventreesfarm]

Once I start trap nesting it will be easier to also track molt and length of lay, since I will be getting more detailed in record keeping per hen. I kind of have casual notations on my older hens, and I can really see how it helps to make observations over a longer time. One particular hen just never seems to be done molting, and her laying really bottomed out. She hatched in October of 2012, so she's not really that old. As her daughters mature I can see if they carry that fault and correct them out of the flock. But if I had sold or eaten the hen sooner, I might not catch the stuck molt thing until it was bred into more lines.