BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

George what I removed was that in horses all the mare owners can only g=breed to the selected stallions to make improvement-- no one is isoliated in theis method. SO if someone has a good cock bird, with some money most people could get some of that bloodline. Long ago the production of these heritage birds as food animals meant bloodlines were passed around a lot. Now a days we are isolated breeders of chickens but in fact would benefit greatly by creating a network of like minded breeders of that particular breed.

Which is why I am going witht he spiral or rotational method in the buckeyes, as I can minimize the effect of my errors in the early years, and have several resources to reach out to for both advice and stock.

You are talking about an established breed with established breeders now. Before the discussion was a project, and my comment was that it would take the right people. Even more so with a project because of the variability and the lack of a defined standard. We argue about what is right wit a breed that is 100 years old. I am not saying it cannot be done. Just that it would take the right person. Personally, I would rater get tem right before I shared them. No one has the same vision.

Personally, I would rather go my own way. If I had Buckeyes, a breed tat is in good shape for now, I would purchase a pullet or two when I felt like needed it. Who had the birds that had what I needed, would be who I was calling. That is all the interconnectivity that I would want or need.

I am not saying you are wrong, just my opinion on the topic. I will go down my own path.

When everyone goes the same way, everyone goes the wrong way.

*** You guys forgive my posts, and their errors. My issue messes with me a bit and it shows. I was never sharp, but even less sharp now. ***

 

[LindaB220]

This is for rural people with no close neighbors.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...0005&cm_mmc=Affiliates-_-Linkshare-_-Link-_-1

The crystals they sell separately. Put your pets up for the night. One spoon in a tuna can with coke. Leave by coop. Will work almost immediately. If not used by morning dispose of. Then let your animals out. This is for people who can't trap or shoot. I haven't used it but heresay only.

 

[gjensen]

Thank you. Got the site bookmarked.

I have and do love reading the old books. The only warning is to keep it in perspective. We know more we did, on many topics. We have also forgot more than we should have. It takes time to start deciding for yourself which is which.

What I appreciate the most about the oldest material is the perspective and the emphasis.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Of course we all get to choose . . . .

THe horses that I mentioned were not an espatblished breed yet-- rather it was a new breed and it now blows away the competiition--- they used stricter stallion selection methods and prevented non- approved stallions from breeding. They have ranked as the No1 sport horse in the world for many years now.

 

[seventreesfarm]

I have and do love reading the old books. The only warning is to keep it in perspective. We know more we did, on many topics. We have also forgot more than we should have. It takes time to start deciding for yourself which is which.

What I appreciate the most about the oldest material is the perspective and the emphasis.

Yeah, sometimes the 'science' is a bit dated or just plain disproved. But reading through a wide selection gives some helpful context of how people bred for production back then, and established some great 'modern' breeds.

I just found this book https://archive.org/details/inheritanceinpou00dave and am interested in the authors experiments with crossbreeding. His genetic terminology is kind of funky, but there is a lot of data to look at.

I've found the older books to be good for trap nesting systems, culling info, ideas for supplementing commercial rations, open-air housing, line breeding systems. Most of the chicken 101 urban backyard books & sites don't go that far, so I'll read anything that fills the gap between that and the giant commercial systems.

 

[gjensen]

One thing to remember is that Cock birds lose their fertility quickly after the first year. I wonder how many with low fertility are using two year old Males for breeding

That seams to imply that the cock bird is useless, which is not true. A good active and vigorous cock bird can be useful for a long time. In fact if longevity means anything to a breeder, you want to push the envelope.

I would go as far to say that if two year old males are a problem, you have a larger problem than the males themselves.

For a small flock, a few years is a better consideration for vigorous birds. Sometimes the older males are better later into the spring.

I imagine that in some lines where the birds are already challenged, this might be a bigger deal.

I know gamecock breeders that have used a male as long as eight years. I used one male, early on, for four years with no real concerns. I have a cock bird on the yard that has sired three generations, and will sire another. I just shared some eggs with someone and the fertility was very good. I expect that I will get good fertility next spring. I intend to use m until I do not need him, or is useless for the effort. He is not there yet.

The commercial all in and all out mindset, is a different all game. That is where a lot of this internet information comes from. 95% fertility to 85% fertility is a big number when you are discussing hundreds of thousands of birds. These birds are also not famous for longevity either. I believe that one of those factors is that they are not selected for any kind of longevity.

The hen's age matters to. Egg viability will go down through the years.

The old adage for older birds is to have youth on one side.

I say when you have something especially good, and they are producing superior offspring, use them until they quit laying or they die. If you cannot get anything out of them after a few years, so be it.

Vigor and longevity (they are often connected) is our number one consideration. It is especially important for us that are concerned with whether or not our birds produce.

 

[gjensen]

Yeah, sometimes the 'science' is a bit dated or just plain disproved. But reading through a wide selection gives some helpful context of how people bred for production back then, and established some great 'modern' breeds.

I just found this book https://archive.org/details/inheritanceinpou00dave and am interested in the authors experiments with crossbreeding. His genetic terminology is kind of funky, but there is a lot of data to look at.

I've found the older books to be good for trap nesting systems, culling info, ideas for supplementing commercial rations, open-air housing, line breeding systems. Most of the chicken 101 urban backyard books & sites don't go that far, so I'll read anything that fills the gap between that and the giant commercial systems.

Like I said, it just takes some knowing to sort through what is good and is not. If someone is not getting too technical it does not matter much.

I will use nutrition for example. We are a world away from where they were. I hear people tell people that feeding oats helps bring pullets into lay. That might have been true in a time or within a flock that has a deficient diet. It is not true anymore. A lot of what was true then is not now, and I imagine in a hundred years people will look back and say the same about us.

I am not saying it is all bad, just that we should not get stuck on all of the particulars as if it was the gospel.

I enjoy reading them myself. I like the mindset, the perspective, and the emphasis most. There is also a lot of information to glean from them, and they are free. The modern books are expensive and very technical.

 

[gjensen]

Here's a link to a pic of a nice hen shape - http://www.pimlottspoultry.co.uk/images/DSC_0175.JPG?623

I like the triangular tail and how it sets low into the body. I also like how the back end of the hen widens up for more room for egg production. My Marans have a deeper breast/keel that gives them kind of a U shape that I don't like. I guess that's to accommodate more breast muscle for meat production.

The head is a little small. I have one hen with kind of a twin dome shaped head that I like that I am trying to breed into my flock. I'll get a picture of her this weekend.

But just for general outline, I like this shape.

Here's a link to a Marans type hen with the U shape http://www.smallholderfeed.co.uk/uploaded/image/Articles/brown-hen-4.gif

I was thinking that if you like that type in the first hen, to get you a commercial laying strain cockerel. He will contribute that type and help you fix that type in your flock. You will not find any type closer, and anything more productive.

 

[ronott1]

That seams to imply that the cock bird is useless, which is not true. A good active and vigorous cock bird can be useful for a long time. In fact if longevity means anything to a breeder, you want to push the envelope.

I would go as far to say that if two year old males are a problem, you have a larger problem than the males themselves.

For a small flock, a few years is a better consideration for vigorous birds. Sometimes the older males are better later into the spring.

I imagine that in some lines where the birds are already challenged, this might be a bigger deal.

I know gamecock breeders that have used a male as long as eight years. I used one male, early on, for four years with no real concerns. I have a cock bird on the yard that has sired three generations, and will sire another. I just shared some eggs with someone and the fertility was very good. I expect that I will get good fertility next spring. I intend to use m until I do not need him, or is useless for the effort. He is not there yet.

The commercial all in and all out mindset, is a different all game. That is where a lot of this internet information comes from. 95% fertility to 85% fertility is a big number when you are discussing hundreds of thousands of birds. These birds are also not famous for longevity either. I believe that one of those factors is that they are not selected for any kind of longevity.

The hen's age matters to. Egg viability will go down through the years.

The old adage for older birds is to have youth on one side.

I say when you have something especially good, and they are producing superior offspring, use them until they quit laying or they die. If you cannot get anything out of them after a few years, so be it.

Vigor and longevity (they are often connected) is our number one consideration. It is especially important for us that are concerned with whether or not our birds produce.

It's all fine.

We are talking about production on this thread. If you want the best production and you are a small farmer, maybe selling to a farmers market, keep the fertility loss in mind when breeding. If you are a breeder working on SOP and other goals then you will want to use your best for longer.

It all depends on your goals. Information was given. Assumptions about what the mean is up to the reader.

 

[bmvf]

At what age can a cock start mating? Are there any signs that he is ready other than just throwing him in the pen with the layers?