BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

Nice ly said George-- You solidified my thoughts in to something useful. Green are always good in addition to seeds. THis makes sense now. IMO when chicks can pick their food they take the softest, most tender, shoots. ANd look for the insects that abound in the greens.

What greens do you feed in the winter months if I might ask? Perhaps are region allows for fresh picked greens.

And yes, my ducks are master foragers. Grass for sure. And oddly they find leave piles and sift thru to get insects etc. They rather prefer the latter for most of their time foraging. Of course right now they all sit out on the rails, off the snow and waiting out the day.

I like Rape. It is easy, fast, and stays palatable longer. The birds like it. A little goes a long ways.

Rye is easy, but they can get too much. When it starts maturing and getting taller, I cut it.

Chickweed is abundant here now, and will be more so soon. My birds that are in their breeding pens got chickweed today.

Clover is good. I like shorter clover. The taller "stemy" clovers are better for grazers and browsers.

Chicory is great, and is a perennial. A little goes a long ways.

Dandelions.

I like to take advantage of what is here already as I can. If I where you were, I would have a bed or two that was a hoop styled greenhouse.

 

[gjensen]

In answer to geroges question . . .

ANd to OCAP too!! lol

I was afraid of making a drastic mistake if I bought good heritage stock. I had read over and over that noobies quit after a few years. I was terrified that I could never do well by these birds . . . so better to not try. Well how stupid was that thinking!!! What IF I WAS one of those that kept at it for 5 years, and if only 5 years perhaps my kids would know enough to one day give it a go themselves in the future . . .and what IF my stock got others started , and what if I did last 20 years in breeding . . . . as I did with horses, and sheep. So about a year ago I did jump in THREE years after getting my box of hatchery pullets . . . . and I still feel like I will make mistakes, and that terrifies me BUT I know if I don't make a move the birds will decide for me, as roosters will have their way, and nature will decide . . . .I just need to jump in and give it a try.

SO I need to
1. band every bird
2. count number of pullets for each of the 3 pens
3. select one male for each pen
4. find 3 pens to keep the breeder birds in

One thing I like to do is watch the males while out and about. I see one male that was picked on and go bloodied. . . should he be culled on that basis alone??? Other males have a waddling gait and I think, he is wide, and moves more like a CX---but is he too wide, does that effect mobility if too extreme, and what is too extreme for a buckeye???????

Ya, I'm chicken.

Do not cull a bird for being on the bottom of the pecking order. There is always a bird on the bottom, unless there is one.

Extremes can be had in any breed, and especially large breeds. They can loose their athleticism. It is important that our birds are fit. Now I cannot see this bird, so I am not saying to do it. I am only saying that extremes do occur.

Everyone's management style is different, but I find it easier to evaluate pullets in smaller groups. I find breeding easier in smaller groups. I like to emphasize individuals when I can. I do prefer single mating, but I do not exclusively.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
lol

FOr those in need:

RUmiants have the special "vat" to hold material and then rechew it several times until the bits are small enough to pass the "filter:, hence their ability to eat very fibrous material. THe microbes in the gut are fed off this material and much of their "output" is directly used by the cattle, as well as the microbes that pass the filter and become a protein source. ANd that is about all I can remember of my grad class in feeding ruminants. lol Rabbits use the cecum, at the end of the line to do this digestion and because of the location cannot utilize fibrous material nearly as well as the true ruminants, but far ahead of the monogastrics.

I suspect that it is the high production dairy cows that receive a high grain diet to match their output that need the super fibrous straw which helps keep the rumen pH in line. All that spit ya' know. ANd yeilds the above mentioned by products. Years ago the dairies went to computerized feeding for the girls. Meaning the cow wears a collar with a signal that when she puts her head in the grain chute, her allotted feed is poured in. BUt only if she is allowed the extra grain. Hence an individual ID signal. ( THe computer records can also catch a girl that is off, and not eating as much, and she can get immediate attention. ) Feeding the high production girls is a real balancing act.

I'm really happy that more and more are going back to grass fed dairy. Ithink we have hit the maximum that the top girls can do. IF not in actual pounds of milk but the end of what the teats can handle.

CHickens are monogastrics. Which is why the less fibrous grasses are important. And here is my question. How to identify the grass that meets these needs?? Soft fibrous, somewhat short. I look at the grass seed and it is all for cattle and horses and haying.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:

 

[Arielle]

Quote: I have the boy-- tossed him in an extra coop with a couple hens of other breeds to keep him happy for now.

On the extremes issue, particularly width, my thought is that width, as in between the legs, is different than depth of keel. ( right??) ANd that begs the question, depth of keel doesn't lead to the waddling like a CX. ( For clarity, non of mine waddle exactly like the CX waddle, just they remind me of that type of walk, the side to side rocking more than a speeding bullet type.)

I plan to continue following the 3 pen rotation these birds came from. THe birds are already marked by pen so I can , or should be able to , sort them accordingly. WIth only about 7 hens, it will be small groups. IT is what I had planned for these at the time of purchase.

An observation : when I single bred sheep, I had one ewe that regularly out produced all others. YEar after year I kept the best lamb from her. ANd maybe one other. Eventually the flock looked like clones.

 

[gjensen]

I have the boy-- tossed him in an extra coop with a couple hens of other breeds to keep him happy for now.

On the extremes issue, particularly width, my thought is that width, as in between the legs, is different than depth of keel. ( right??) ANd that begs the question, depth of keel doesn't lead to the waddling like a CX. ( For clarity, non of mine waddle exactly like the CX waddle, just they remind me of that type of walk, the side to side rocking more than a speeding bullet type.)

I plan to continue following the 3 pen rotation these birds came from. THe birds are already marked by pen so I can , or should be able to , sort them accordingly. WIth only about 7 hens, it will be small groups. IT is what I had planned for these at the time of purchase.

An observation : when I single bred sheep, I had one ewe that regularly out produced all others. YEar after year I kept the best lamb from her. ANd maybe one other. Eventually the flock looked like clones.

Now, you want good width between the legs. That is your foundation. Your foundation is good thick shanks, and widely spaced legs, and good developed thighs. Width is best judged by looking down at the bird. You want to see wide shoulders, and that width to follow through to the tail. I am speaking generally.

Depth of keel is literally that. You want good length, and depth. You want a nice well rounded breast, and a deep keel. The depth of keel in my avatar is deeper than many that is being shown, but is not deep enough. Think breast bone. Again, I am speaking generally.

An advantage to single mating is identifying superior individuals by way of their offspring. Also good and bad traits. Tendencies. Some will consistently throw better offspring. We want to emphasize these individuals, possibly establishing a family off of them. They are more than we see as individuals. Old timers said that they were "pre-potent". I try to understand it as an accumulated inheritance. Inheritance is not only an individual, but the family behind an individual. Families have tendencies as individuals have tendencies. It is as much or more the family behind the bird as it is the bird itself.

 

[Arielle]

As for soy and corn--it is not my intention to start a debate here-- only to state my position. I have always fed my horses corn and soy grain as this combination is a good amino acid profile, each compliments the other. I have always raised my horses on a corn -soy grain, and my old man was born in 1987 and still flies out of stall in the morning.

Since I cant effectively grow corn or soy to meet the farm needs, I'm looking to other grain sources too. FOr the birds at least.

edited to add--I forgot toaddress the greens benefits. While the modern feeds are milled to balance and include the basic macro and micro minerals, these components are a bit outdated. I've come to the concludion that while these pelleted feed products are rather good, it should not replace the real thing, as in real food. For the same reason I still push my kids to eat their salads, and vegies, there are far more nutrients in real food, live food, than can be compiled in a nutrient pack that is added to a 10 ton batch of feed destined to be pelleted before bagging.

I'm with you George.

 

[gjensen]

lol

FOr those in need:

RUmiants have the special "vat" to hold material and then rechew it several times until the bits are small enough to pass the "filter:, hence their ability to eat very fibrous material. THe microbes in the gut are fed off this material and much of their "output" is directly used by the cattle, as well as the microbes that pass the filter and become a protein source. ANd that is about all I can remember of my grad class in feeding ruminants. lol Rabbits use the cecum, at the end of the line to do this digestion and because of the location cannot utilize fibrous material nearly as well as the true ruminants, but far ahead of the monogastrics.

I suspect that it is the high production dairy cows that receive a high grain diet to match their output that need the super fibrous straw which helps keep the rumen pH in line. All that spit ya' know. ANd yeilds the above mentioned by products. Years ago the dairies went to computerized feeding for the girls. Meaning the cow wears a collar with a signal that when she puts her head in the grain chute, her allotted feed is poured in. BUt only if she is allowed the extra grain. Hence an individual ID signal. ( THe computer records can also catch a girl that is off, and not eating as much, and she can get immediate attention. ) Feeding the high production girls is a real balancing act.

I'm really happy that more and more are going back to grass fed dairy. Ithink we have hit the maximum that the top girls can do. IF not in actual pounds of milk but the end of what the teats can handle.

CHickens are monogastrics. Which is why the less fibrous grasses are important. And here is my question. How to identify the grass that meets these needs?? Soft fibrous, somewhat short. I look at the grass seed and it is all for cattle and horses and haying.

You can handle a blade of grass and evaluate it for poultry. The lawn type fescues are more digestible. Too hot here for them in the summer. Ironically, crabgrass is pretty good. Watch the birds and they will tell you.

Here, our dominant grasses are Bahia and Bermuda. Both are coarse and fibrous. If you keep Bahia watered, fertilized, limed, and cut it is not that bad. Otherwise the birds do not give it much attention.

I read a N. Korean study of them feeding Bamboo leaves to poultry exclusively. They survived, but they did not thrive. Afterwards they measured the intestines. They were longer than a control group showing some degree of adaptability. In the same study they fed a group white rice, and another brown rice. The birds fed white rice did not survive. Those fed brow rice did, and had poor performance, but did perform some.

 

[bnjrob]

CHickens are monogastrics. Which is why the less fibrous grasses are important. And here is my question. How to identify the grass that meets these needs?? Soft fibrous, somewhat short. I look at the grass seed and it is all for cattle and horses and haying.

Our chickens prefer to go for what most people would call weeds but are actually edible, and sometimes used as cover crops. They don't go after true grazing grasses like you find at the feed store to seed over pastures for larger livestock. They prefer things like dandelion, dock, henbit, clover, sow thistle, various small wild flowers, purslane - things we have growing wild in our pasture. I actually learned to ID some of these things in my research on edible weeds for people. They also enjoy the things I grow extra in the garden for them like spinach, arugula, lettuce. They aren't very fond of mustard or collard greens though.

 

[gjensen]

As for soy and corn--it is not my intention to start a debate here-- only to state my position. I have always fed my horses corn and soy grain as this combination is a good amino acid profile, each compliments the other. I have always raised my horses on a corn -soy grain, and my old man was born in 1987 and still flies out of stall in the morning.

Since I cant effectively grow corn or soy to meet the farm needs, I'm looking to other grain sources too. FOr the birds at least.

The poultry industry is built on soy and corn. Soy being a high energy feed. They do compliment each other well.

Corn is easy to harvest by hand, and you can get more corn per acre than the other grains. If my health was not the way it was, I would be planting corn.

I like the white millet cultivars because they are easy to harvest, and very fast to mature. I can get a couple crops. I would cut it, and let the birds have it. I used to use it in a rotation.

Sorghum is good for our dry summers.

Oats are more complete on their own than the others.

I tried Amaranth. The seeds are too small and do not mature uniformly. Much is lost. My birds did not get excited about them, but the songbirds did.

I want to try drying blueberries for my birds this year. If I have any extra. My wife sells them all.

Boiled potatoes mixed with grain is not a bad supplement. The Europeans use to do this. Particularly post war. You can get a lot of potatoes from a small area. I read some studies where sweet potatoes were used to decrease the reliance on imported grains.