BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

Just bought one on Amazon. My egg total is up to 41 right now and I'm not sure when the thermometer will ship so I set the eggs. I would assume my thermometer is showing warmer than it should because my last two hatches have been a day or so late. So I set the incubator at 101 instead of the 99.5 for the last hatch. I'll be sure to check the old thermometer with the new Brinsea when it comes. Hopefully I'm correct and don't fry my eggs.

My Dels started laying this week at 21 weeks. Not bad considering they didn't have a light and it was a very cold winter.

21 wks is a good point for that breed. That is where they should be. Between 20 and 22wks.

 

[bmvf]

Quote: Would it be wise to make another round of culls choosing the birds that are laying now? I am down to 4 pullets. How long of a delay from the first pullet laying to the last pullet laying is acceptable?

 

[LindaB220]

So this may be a stupid question, but if they slaughter the survivors, how is the species supposed to build immunity? It seems that birds that can survive would be valuable. Im no immunologist but...?

I understand that they want to keep it from spreading. Why not quarantine?

Good point!!!

 

[dfr1973]

So this may be a stupid question, but if they slaughter the survivors, how is the species supposed to build immunity? It seems that birds that can survive would be valuable. Im no immunologist but...?

I understand that they want to keep it from spreading. Why not quarantine?

Geek warning: I did a lot of study on influenza back in 2009. Influenza is a segmented virus, along with being RNA not DNA. Between those two facts, that leaves a lot of room for mutations and strain variations. For the record, this is the same influenza people and pigs can get. The H#N# identifies the outer coating proteins that is the first way of differentiating between the various influenzas. Avian types tend more towards H5 and H7, but can also be H1 or H3, both of which are common in humans. H5 and H7 tend to be very deadly on the rare occasions people get them.

Basic virology: the virus capsule attaches to a cell wall, injects the genetic material (in influenza, that would be the RNA segments) which hijacks the cells replicating apparatus to make new viral codes instead of the cell's codes. Single-chain RNA and DNA sequences tend to be replicated in a more true-to-original form, and often mutations render them nonfunctional. RNA segments have a lot more leeway in terms of mutations be functional and the rate of mutations (transcription errors). The hijacked cells will then repackage the genetic codes into new protein capsules, the cell lyses/ruptures, and the new viral capsules go find new cells to hijack.

Basic immunology: viral antibodies attach to specific protein structures on the outside of the viral capsule. These are highly specific (else you'd end up with allergy-like symptoms to close analogs) and often keyed only to specific strains within a subtype. This is why I will always ask how close a match the annual flu shot is before I bother to get one. Your basic human flu shot will have ONE strain on Type B influenza, one strain of H1 subtype and one strain of subtype H3. In the first six months of 2009, when the novel pandemic strain was making news, there were EIGHTEEN other H1N1 strains active around the globe in addition to the new one. That was an average year for number of H1 strains, and having one does not confer immunity to other strains unless the antibodies fit the protein structure well enough to trigger the immune response.

I am using human immunology here because there is more geek info on it, and that was what my college courses were about, but the basic principles apply to both swine and poultry as the influenza virus is really not picky about what type of cell it hijacks. The virus is still influenza - and it is highly mutable which means if there is just the right mutation, you could easily catch the virus right after recovering from it! If influenza were a more stable RNA or even a DNA virus, then these tactics could work for disease resistance.

This is off the top of my head, but if anyone has more questions I can break out the old textbooks or interpret a scientific paper if you'd like.

 

[gjensen]

Would it be wise to make another round of culls choosing the birds that are laying now? I am down to 4 pullets. How long of a delay from the first pullet laying to the last pullet laying is acceptable?

If you have culled down to your four best pullets, I would go with my four best pullets. There will be enough variability in the offspring (in your flock) to not do any lasting damage. Then if they are laying five eggs a week during laying season, four would be twenty, and two would be ten. It easier to select from qty. than not. Sometimes we start with a trio, and it forces us to hatch many small batches over a length of time.

POL is an average, so yes, there is a range. I think the commercial guys figure it in % laying at a certain point. Not when the first egg is identified. 20-22 wks. is a very good range for this breed. Decide what is too late for you, and do not keep any past that point. That is a strength of theirs at this point, so all you need to do is maintain it, but you do need to maintain it.

There are advantages to them reaching POL a little later, so do not feel inclined to push them. Let good management and genetics dictate when.

24wks is a reasonable average for most American Breeds, but the Delaware and New Hampshire were noted for their fast feathering, their rate of maturity, and their early fleshing. We should keep an eye on what their strengths were. They were noted to be in the 20wk range, but 22 is very good. Why not enjoy the advantages the breed should offer? Let the 28-32 wk layers be enjoyed by others with other breeds that are not selected to be any different than what they already are.

There are some color challenges with this breed. Of course that is not your priority at this point, but there are points you do not want to neglect all together either. You have heard build the barn before you paint it, and it is a good saying. BUT, you do not want to re build the barn to paint it. That would not make a lot of sense. Hold on to what you have, and be mindful of the specifics of this color variety. The color variety of the Delaware is a unique characteristic of the breed. There are none marked like it. It is an actual color to learn to breed. Well marked birds do not happen on their own, and they do not maintain their color on their own.

Vigor and Health 1st. Type and productivity 2nd. Color is last, but that point is often overemphasized to the point of neglect. That is a mistake. Learning to breed the color is part of learning to breed a breed. The finer points can wait, and there is plenty to worry about now, but we would not want to lose what we have. It is not hard to do, but it is hard to get back.

As you move into growing out your first generation, it begins to be the work of your hands, and their will be even more to consider. Fortunately, there will be more to select from, and plenty of time to watch and evaluate them.

 

[bramblefir]

So this may be a stupid question, but if they slaughter the survivors, how is the species supposed to build immunity? It seems that birds that can survive would be valuable. Im no immunologist but...?

I understand that they want to keep it from spreading. Why not quarantine?

That's a good question and you've had a lot of really good answers already.

The primary issue with developing immunity to the virus is that it mutates quickly and the particular strain the breeder faces this year is unlikely to be the same strain next year. They might not encounter the same exact strain in 50 years, if ever. AI is always around, just like the human varieties. It's just that this particular strain is highly virulent, sort of like the 1918 flu pandemic.

The problem with quarantine in an infected flock is that the virus can still escape, whether it be by mutating to a new host (humans) or being carried out by lax biosecurity. Also, the primary host for the virus is migratory waterfowl and they can't really be contained that easily. Once the spring migration ends the cases of this AI strain should die out (assuming nobody else is harboring it) and with any luck we won't see it again anytime soon.

 

[jonservidio]

Just bought one on Amazon. My egg total is up to 41 right now and I'm not sure when the thermometer will ship so I set the eggs. I would assume my thermometer is showing warmer than it should because my last two hatches have been a day or so late. So I set the incubator at 101 instead of the 99.5 for the last hatch. I'll be sure to check the old thermometer with the new Brinsea when it comes. Hopefully I'm correct and don't fry my eggs.

My Dels started laying this week at 21 weeks. Not bad considering they didn't have a light and it was a very cold winter.

some take a little longer, some hatch sooner. I read on here somewhere that Cubalaya take 22 days. my mixed mutts typically hatch a day/day and a half early. Last month, I set six eggs under a broody old hen(hatchery leghorn no less, lol), set on Sunday, hatched on Friday.

if I can't be right on(and that'll never happen, lol)I would rather be a bit under than over.

good luck, today and always

 

[jonservidio]

and ps, you might consider dropping the temp a degree or so the last three or four days(I saw it on here somewhere). the reason being, as they are mostly developed, they are producing their own heat

I have been doing that lately, and it hasn't hurt, that I can tell. hatched 28 of 31 this week, set on Saturday, started hatching Thursday night

 

[ronott1]

and ps, you might consider dropping the temp a degree or so the last three or four days(I saw it on here somewhere). the reason being, as they are mostly developed, they are producing their own heat

I have been doing that lately, and it hasn't hurt, that I can tell. hatched 28 of 31 this week, set on Saturday, started hatching Thursday night

Yes, It also helps with oxygen levels in the hatcher.

 

[gjensen]

I like to keep it simple when it comes to hatching and incubating eggs. Starting with a good thermometer, running it at the correct temperature, and within the correct range for humidity. Doing that, I have been very successful.

I realize that people like to try different things to tease out an extra couple percent, and I am not disputing those efforts. I also realize that it requires hatching thousands under precisely controlled conditions to really know what works and what does not. Obviously, some here have enough experience to know what works for them, and not.

If my incubator runs at 99.5 degrees (forced air), and the humidity runs between 40-50% humidity, then in the range of 60% during the hatch, I have very good hatches. In the range of 90-95% (of fertile eggs). That is if I store the eggs well, and for less than 7 days. I tried storing eggs up to 14 days, but for me, that is too much. I would not be beyond storing them for up to ten days.

My point is not to the more experienced. It is to the less experienced. Make sure the breeding birds are in good condition, control the temperature and humidity, turn the eggs as they should be turned, keep the incubators/hatchers clean, store the eggs well, set only clean eggs, and you will do well. If that does not produce good results, then the birds are likely the problem.

There is no substitute for a good incubator.

Eggs tolerate a small range in conditions, and still hatch. They are tougher than we give them credit for being. I accidentally had my incubator turned off for 16-17 hours this year. Two batches a week a part still hatched at plus 90%. I think it was near 69 of 73. The only affect was a delayed hatch, and a hatch that drug out longer than normal. They tolerate dips in temperature, much better than spikes in temperature.

For those starting out, buy a GOOD incubator, stick to the keys, and keep it simple. Once you experience sustained success for a length of time, then you can tweak it as you please. Then there is no wondering why there is a change in results. Good or bad.

Ronnot1 is the resident incubating and hatching expert. He has good advice.