BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

I love reading these discussions because they always get the wheels of my brain turning. I've accepted the fact that one bird...and I mean literally one bird...cannot be the all encompassing solution to good meat + egg production, but I wonder if you could cover both needs within a single breed? My NN Turkens have finally come of the age for butchering of the unwanted cockerels, and the pullets are fast approaching POL. After reading a suggestion by @gjensen a few months back I actually created a visual graph of their growth rates instead of simply relying on my charts, and I've noticed one interesting detail...there appear to be two specific groups within my flock. Both groups are comprised of pullets and cockerel(s), but one group is much, much heavier than the other, consumes more food, and all of the birds simply feel much meatier. These are my meat breeders. The second group is lighter in weight, more active, and more efficient with their feed. I'm anxiously waiting to see if this group proves a better choice for egg laying. It's something I hope to track and maybe experiment with in the future.

An astute observation and I have had the same experience. I strongly suspect that you have the wherewithal to divide your 'strains' and work from that position to have both meat and egg producers within your NN breed but NOT in the same bird. JMHO

I would select those 'chunkies' that are most pronounced in weight (not size) and in just a very few generations, perhaps sooner, you'd have what you want for a meat flock. Same with the smaller bodied hens. I've had some large meatie birds that laid bunches of eggs in their first season but the smaller birds reminded me of the 'Ever-Ready Bunny'..... they just kept laying, even respectably during molt.

The last of the NN layers had about 8 ot 9 hens that looked as though they had been dipped in lye water while others had finished molting but had not resumed laying. The smaller 'workers' were also the 'coop bosses' and kept everyone in line. They did look pitiful but they were covered in fat blue pinfeathers and by now, will surely have blossomed out.

 

[hellbender]

First chicks from homemade incubator are beginning to hatch!

 

[Our Roost]

OooH! Send some picks of chicks and incubator.

 

[DesertChic]

First chicks from homemade incubator are beginning to hatch!

Woohoo!!!! Can't wait for photos!

 

[LindaB220]

I was planning on selling all my extras that hatched while I concentrated on my good white rocks, but with this Avian Flu scare I think I will just keep them. Increasing my size will not hurt. I have 24 (not 21 like I thought) newbies 11 days old. And the 'bator has 30+ eggs. No idea of viability. I can't candle worth a darn. But with the last hatch I had 40 in lockdown with 6 dying at hatch. Shrink wrapped I guess. Won't make that mistake again. So a 75% hatch rate. It's going to be better this time. All my own birds.
My Coronation Sussex went broody 5-6 days ago and now the Blosl hen is doing the same. Yea!!! I don't have any babies from her but a LOT from the XW's. I'm putting them in the Blosl coop. (2 hens) along with the rest. Then I'll be mixing the breeds together. I can tell the pure Blosl's apart from the smoky tinge on the new down.
Woops, the Blosl hen has just appropriated the Sussex eggs. Better get them fixed up with their own area. Let them share the eggs.

 

[gjensen]

I like this part of your post and appreciate your position. I would use the term break even instead of making a profit. I feel that break even should include the actual cost for replacements and 'facilities' since they may have come out of pocket. I would worry about labor if I were in the egg business but it's a hobby for me.

Regarding my post from a few days ago, I need to break even or at least get close. Yes, there is a case to eating your own home grown food raised the way you want it raised but then rather than $2.50 eggs, maybe $4 eggs is what they are actually worth. In my case I need to find better ways to feed them cheaply. But I don't have the time. I am sure I put 270 hours in the past 3 weeks. It was just work, work, work. My chicken tractor that my NH's will use is about 2 hours from completion which will save me in feed.

As I work with my Dels and NH's, I also have the same thoughts as George. You can't raise a dual purpose bird that is efficient in laying eggs. Maybe I need to play around with cheaper feed for my layers, I dunno. My one problem is that I'm not into marketing eggs or trying to get people to buy them so I have no need for extra eggs. I should reduce my flock to enough birds that will provide for the family but also can fill the incubator when I want a hatch for butchering. The other option is to just buy some really efficient layers like Leghorns and CX's for meat.... but I'd rather breed my own birds.

You have run into what we all run into when the money matters to us.

If you can get your birds where you feel good about them, selling some extras helps. I am a reluctant seller, but the locals keep coming. I have gotten rid of quite a few in the last few weeks, and this week. 5 and 6 wk. old birds that I see that has no hope of making it here. They cost me a $2.00 of feed at this point (for illustration), and am letting them go for $5.00 and $6.00. It would have cost the buyer as much to purchase the chick, feed them, heat them etc. so my conscience is clean.

The more they range, the less you are feeding them, as you know. However to maximize that. The more they can get from the ground they are on, the better. A mono culture pasture is only going to provide so much though. What they need in the largest qty. is energy. Green forage is low in energy. Some edible weeds helps. The legumes and greens. They will eat grass, but do not try to make it do too much. Chickens are high starch low fiber animals. Rabbits are high fiber, low starch animals. Ideally, digestible greens should not make up more than 25% of their diet. I tend to think of a mix of legumes, greens, and herbs. In that order. I do not put any emphasis on grass though I do get some benefit from it. In our area the more coarse grasses like Bahia, Bermuda, Centipede etc. thrive. Lawn fescues are more tender than these. We get too hot to depend on fescue. Crabgrass, everyone's weed is a pretty good grass. Allowing grasses and "weeds" to go to seed, then cutting it is good. The more seed available, the less they will rely on your grain.

It seams that you would have access to bulk grains in your area. Oats are great, have a good amino acid profile etc. The oats hang up (everything has a hang up) is that they are high fiber. Soaking them or fermenting them has been the gamecock breeders solution to the high fiber problem for 100s of years. Whole corn is low in fiber, high in energy, and very digestible. It's hang up is that it has a poor amino acid profile (needs to be coupled with something else), and low in protein. Wheat is intermediate of the two, but too much causes it's own problems.

It seams that you would have some extra milk. I would consider how to integrate the system a little more. The milk would be a good source of protein and fat. Yes, they need fat to. A little would go along ways.

Kitchen scraps helps cut the cost. Cutting costs at home is cutting those scraps. We do not want to feed them even more expensive feed, but the scraps that are there can be used by the birds. During World War 2 Europe's birds were kept alive on scraps, and steamed potatoes. Grain was not much of an option during the rationing.

Controlling waste is important. Pellets are helpful. Feeding them once per day, if they are ranged, is helpful (this pushes them farther from the coop). Bee likes to ferment her feed, and I think it is worth considering. I free feed, but I make them run out of feed. The birds that are in mobile pens are moved to time with them running out, and cleaning up their waste themselves. I will let the housed birds run out for a day a week occasionally, and this encourages them to clean up their spilled feed. The old gamecock breeders believed in withholding feed a day a week, and only feeding them what thy would clean up in a sitting. They wanted their birds a "little hungry", and did not want them to get "fat and lazy". They are different birds, and for different reasons, but there is something to be gained by the perspective.

With the dual purpose breeds, starting to cull cockerels early is helpful. You can split and grill young birds as early as 6 wks if they are any good. If they are not, get them there. One bird per person per sitting. It is not what we are used to but it cutting waste by consuming birds unfit for breeding. Be careful though. Don't kill what could be used in a breeding pen to help you.
Always cull your least productive birds. Eat your layers. Your pullets will be the most productive in their first year, less in the second, and third etc. Only keep the best every year, and stew the rest. They need to be pretty good to live three years. If they are good enough to live three years, get as many chicks as you can from them. They are proven. If you have an excellent cockerel by then, use him with them. Youth on one side will mean better fertility and hatchability. Use a proven cock on good one year old hens.

Advertise and sell sex linked chicks in the spring. They will come. Pay for that good incubator with chicks. Do a fall hatch. People like to get POL pullets in the spring. That would be a good time to get rid of culls.

Feed is 80% of the cost of keeping birds. The rest is all of the rest. But do not be tempted to sacrifice performance for economy. That is a false economy. They are the most efficient when they are at their genetic potential. Productivity is genetics first, and management second.

If you can get where they cost you 1.50 per dozen, sell clean eating eggs for $3.00. Have them bring a carton, or come up with an economical way to get clean cartons, and then clean them. This will pay for the breeder's feed, and may help with other costs.

Cull, cull, cull. You are better off with less birds that are good, than more that is not. Starting out, it could be helpful to get to a couple trios and work from there.

You can get it where it makes sense to you, but it will take some time to find your own rhyme and reason. In the mean time, breed good birds. There is a lack of and demand for good birds that perform well. Right now, it is usually either or. You have the genetics to get them there. You will have to breed it out and into them.

You are also smart and thoughtful enough to do it.

 

[gjensen]

I love reading these discussions because they always get the wheels of my brain turning. I've accepted the fact that one bird...and I mean literally one bird...cannot be the all encompassing solution to good meat + egg production, but I wonder if you could cover both needs within a single breed? My NN Turkens have finally come of the age for butchering of the unwanted cockerels, and the pullets are fast approaching POL. After reading a suggestion by @gjensen a few months back I actually created a visual graph of their growth rates instead of simply relying on my charts, and I've noticed one interesting detail...there appear to be two specific groups within my flock. Both groups are comprised of pullets and cockerel(s), but one group is much, much heavier than the other, consumes more food, and all of the birds simply feel much meatier. These are my meat breeders. The second group is lighter in weight, more active, and more efficient with their feed. I'm anxiously waiting to see if this group proves a better choice for egg laying. It's something I hope to track and maybe experiment with in the future.

Your first point is a challenge in these discussions. The word good. What each of us decide is good or good enough can be different.

I would say that we can have good on each point, but not excellent.

A NH that lays 200 extra large eggs, and sons that weigh 5 1/2 lbs at 12-14wks is good on both points. Egg size does matter, and nothing bothers me more than an average layer that lays medium sized eggs but eats 5oz+ per day. I like to consider egg weights per dozen when evaluating the large birds. Larger birds should lay larger eggs. A 200 egg layer that lays extra large eggs, and some jumbos puts out as much as a 220 egg layer that is only large or less. A dozen extra large eggs is worth more than a dozen large eggs. There is more egg.

Both can be had on the level described above, but to go either way from there will detract from the other. You might tease a few more eggs from a strain like this, but going too far is going the other way.

You could even overcome the genetic antagonist that are limiting, but there is no point when the eggs just cost more and more per dozen. The hypothetical NH describes a balance. NHs were the it bird for a time, around the world, for this reason. To get both out of the same bird. They lost out to the specialization that followed.

They learned this during the laying trials back in the day. Especially when qty. of feed was considered. Many breeds were developed to perform well as layers. Reds, NHs, Rocks, Australorps all had strains that performed well. We base today's reputations on such reputations and nostalgia, preferring to recall the performance of individual birds. The Australorp breeders love to recall the individual birds that set records, but when the averages are considered for the different breeds then, their was not much separation between the breeds as a whole.
Now considering the above, we fail to realize that they were specialized strains developed for the production of eggs. Not meat. They were far lighter than the meat strains of NHs and Rocks, and lighter still than the dual purpose strains. They were almost developed into other breeds all together. In fact that is how two of these breeds come into being. The Australorp from the Orpington, and the NH from the Reds. Breeds intentionally developed to perform. Commercial breeds.
Eventually these birds were left behind for the Leghorn. They laid as well as Leghorns, but the Leghorns ate less feed. They were more efficient producers, and so the development went into these as a priority.

The hatchery dual purpose strains (popular ones) of today are of this type set. Laying strains. They do not perform as well as these particular laying trial strains. That requires very intentional, organized, and thoughtful breeding. They are light in weight like the laying strains however. It costs less to feed them for the chicks they produce. They are not of the classically accepted dual purpose type. Some are better than others. There is some variability. Now are they good enough? Well . . .you can eat them, but I would not call them efficient producers of flesh. And I have had many many through the years. They do however eat less than the larger meatier strains, and often lay better. They have their value, and I believe a more practical option for many. It is not as if they produce no meat at all. I would say that they are still dual purpose birds. It is not as if they are commercial leghorns that have nothing at all (commercial leghorn hens run in the range of 3 1/2 pounds).

A lot of times we think we want this or that, and then realize that we do not. Or we evolve over time, or for myself, circumstances change. Economy does matter, and we have to balance what we want with what we can afford. Historically roasting fowl was a luxury, seasonal, and cost as much or more than beef. There is a reason for that. I still see poultry meat on our stead as seasonal and a treat, though Bee gave me some tips on canning. I intend to do this with spent and cull layers, but not depend on it.

To illustrate, I am working to develop my Catalanas to fit my own balance and ideal. Them being such a rare breed, I do have some room to operate. There is no consensus here on what they should be. I could show them, and frankly, most judges would not know how to best evaluate them. They are much more rare than any of these rare imports selling for a lot of money (that are really worth much much less).
What I want from these birds to do is mature as fast sexually as they do. Reach fryer weights early, be able to cull and eat cockerels very early, but not grow too large. I do not want them to be the heavy hitters of feed eaters that some strains of breeds are. If I want some roasters from them, I will caponize some. They already lay very well, and I intend to keep that.

I could develop a good meat strain in a breed. I could do two. One one way, and another a laying strain. We could reduce the cost of eggs in the meat strain, but we would increase the cost in the other. I think we are better off finding our own balance. Picking the breed that best fits that potential, and developing our own strain. Let the proof in the pudding be in the eating. But, if we want to do both, there is nothing wrong with that either. My thinking is based on that developing a strain and making progress requires a lot of hatching. Maintaining a flock or two is different than breeding for improvement. If I had the time, money etc., I would develop many strains of many breeds. LOL. There is a lot that I would like to do.

One of the worst things we have done to some exhibition strains is breed them too large, and with too much feather. Not selecting for rates of maturity, not culling the poorest producers, not preferring birds from those that molted in reasonable time frames etc. This is not true for all. There is a lot out there.

My opinion is that we pick a strain that is closest to our desires and go to work. Go with the breed that we like the most, or start a project and go to work. There are a lot of genetics out there to work with. We have access to genetics no one has before. Goodness, the improvement that could be had by what is considered waste. A single dime a dozen commercial sex linked male could improve the laying of a heavy over sized strain drastically.

In England before sex linked strains became standardized, traditional simple crosses were common. It was not uncommon to pick a lighter in weight vigorous Red, and put him on a heavy strain of Light Sussex. They believed the lighter in weight male, that they would not use for breeding pen otherwise, made better laying sex linked pullets. They often kept two breeds, or cooperated with another. Laying strains of Rhode Island Reds on heavy Light Sussex was common. They did process the fast growing cockerels. There is certainly nothing wrong with doing this. These old timers did not do it because there was no advantage to it. They felt they were capturing the best of both worlds.

 

[Our Roost]

These old timers did not do it because there was no advantage to it. They felt they were capturing the best of both worlds. GJensen.

To me, this is what most of my personal project is all about. I call it a happy medium between a meat bird and a sufficient egg layer. Utility breeding to provide food for the homestead without breaking the bank and utilizing what you raise makes perfect sense. This is a great conversation.

 

[Beer can]

Boy, always a lot of good reading here.
gjensen you mention canning, that's what my mother always did with most of their chickens.
I've canned venison but with chicken I just pressure cook them when we are ready to eat them, easier. I used to just use a small pressure cooker, fit one whole chicken. But I've overdone them a couple times, fell apart little bones everywhere, guess my timing was off Lol. Now I just use a crockpot slowcooker, easier to keep an eye on it, and if you do overdo it the meat and little bones don't get all mixed up.

 

[dfr1973]

Pressure canning chicken is not difficult. I just followed the instruction booklet that came with my pressure canners (yes, plural). I make sure a couple pints go to hubby's grandmother, who says our chicken is the best tasting she has eaten in her life - and she's 87 now. I also do condensed stock, from simmering the carcasses to get as much meat off before throwing the bones out to the "rancor pit," as hubby calls the chickens.

I find myself nodding to a lot of the recent discussion on the balance of dual purpose chickens. Right now, I am at the stage where two of three cockerels have started crowing, and I look at the pullets every morning to see if any of them are nearing PoL.