BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

This may be more about interpretation than the actual phrase itself. The way I take it to mean is: "Don't sacrifice type and body for color or fancy feathers." If two birds are equal in type and body and size, then you select for the coloring, but don't keep a pretty-feathered bird with poor body over the one with excellent body but not as good of color. With the gold-laced, I will have quite a bit going on, colorwise, and I found a nice little chart on the Wyandotte lacing that shows what missing genes looks like, as the proper lacing takes three sets of genes.

Hubby asked a really good question the other week when we were sitting out one evening watching the chickens. He asked about where the gold color will come from if I am using Luanne's black phase BLR. I explained that she is still culling for "brassiness," which is the gold gene showing through. Last night we were looking at the pullets from January, who are beginning to pink up in the face, and I pointed out all three pullets have the brassiness, plus a bit of gold on their wing primaries. It is a bit of luck there, but I will happily take it.

Another interesting little aside, I emailed a fellow named Chuck Hagi, who had a GLW project using Sandhill and Cackle stock. He responded, saying he abandoned the project because while he got great lacing and good profile, he could not get size in the two years he worked on them. I know I have seen his name before in regards to breeding chickens, but still have not been able to place where I saw him mentioned before. Luanne's birds definitely have size, as that is one thing she told me she will not compromise on since it is so hard to get it back if lost.

No. Let me be more frank, and as a result more clear. "Build the barn before you paint it" is a mis used, over used, catch all phrase used, by those that do not know an better. It is better used and applied by those that raise dominant white or black birds. Then there is no confusion, and it could actually apply. So the problem is as much in it's use as it is in it's interpretation.
Your explanation is a good attempt at a middle ground, but explains again, why the phrase is not helpful . . . hinting at the complexities that can be involved in breeding some colors. We can neglect it if we want to, but it is be careful of what we ask for. For those that do not prefer to be concerned with color should work with birds that have none. That solves it all. LOL.

It is foolish to spend years to build type, and then take years re building it to get the color right.

Birds are neither houses nor barns. We are also not painters, and there is no paint thinner to clean up mistakes. The two go together as we move along, and the priorities and emphasis does shift as the birds change.

It is a harmful phrase, and not a helpful phrase.

And I mean this in all seriousness to newcomers. Color doe not lay eggs, or put flesh on a frame. Anyone not interested in the distractions, and are concerned with utility alone . . . forget the fancy varieties which are meant to be fancy . . .instead get a simple color variety.
The more characteristics to select for, the longer it takes to make progress. It also requires years to master the art of breeding some colors. Many can repeat much to do with one, but putting it into practice is another matter all together.
Now, to that same newcomer, I am not saying to avoid a color that strikes your fancy. By all means, learn to master the art of breeding that color. There is a lot of joy and pleasure in learning to breed a color. I am learning to breed one of the most difficult colors. The color I speak of is not a difficult color pattern to achieve, but it is extraordinarily difficult to perfect. But I love this color, and I enjoy this challenge.

The more challenging colors are a life time's work, and the learning them never ends.

The "fancy" varieties', by nature, will never ever set production records. They can certainly be productive however. And when they are, and their type is good . . . . the color is right, the vigor and health is high, they hatch like popcorn, and the flock is uniform . . . they become a remarkable achievement. Something to be proud of and admire.
A life time's work and something worth passing down, like passing a torch.
 
Certainly not in my experience. It simply allows the bird to mature without the male hormones having a 'toughening' effect on it. Same applies to poulardes bur again...in my opinion, will not speed growth or 'readiness' of the birds.

I read an article that said the market for capons is about two hundred and fifty thousand compared to about 8 billion broilers. There is a niche market for them and they go for $89.00 each. A company that sells them on the east coast has problems filling the orders. If you can competently capon cockerels, you could make some cash--more from hiring out though then selling the capons.

No. It keeps them tender longer and larger.

Thanks! When I worked for Safeway in the meat department back in the 1980s, we sold capons sometimes. They seem to be a Christmas dinner item for some cultures.
 
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Thank you very much!

ANYONE ELSE? That is the breed/color phase I had 'squashed' from the order placed (using my credit card) but I'm not having second thoughts. I might just go ahead and order them, just to see what they will do with them.

ANY INFORMATION WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. The description of the color phase says it has a double dose of mahogany.... I was thinking of picking out a nice cockerel (provided I re-order them) and use him to cover two or three nice Dark Cornish.

The least would be capon/poularde material with pretty feathers??? lol

I am going to give you an opinion.

Good Mahogany color does not contrast well with black. They lose me with this variety. It does contrast well with blue, and black contrasts well with white and gold. The later three varieties have my eye, but perfecting the mahogany is losing the contrast with the black. To me they begin to look muddy.

Laced varieties are about the sharp contrasts in color. The intricate lines that nearly disappear on too dark of a base.

Some colors do not work with some patterns. Red or buff and barring do not go well together etc. etc.

Somebody liked them, and they will receive some attention for a time, but I predict those that are good at these colors will in time . . . leave this variety behind.

Now blue laced red . . . that can be pretty sharp.

Kind of like a Rhode Island Red etc Ron. It takes some looking to see the black tail.

I seen these a while back. http://redlaced.com/
 
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I read an article that said the market for capons is about two hundred and fifty thousand compared to about 8 billion broilers. There is a niche market for them and they go for $89.00 each. A company that sells them on the east coast has problems filling the orders. If you can competently capon cockerels, you could make some cash--more from hiring out though then selling the capons.


Thanks! When I worked for Safeway in the meat department back in the 1980s, we sold capons sometimes. They seem to be a Christmas dinner item for some cultures.

I believe my 'brood' has plans to try to deal with the local tourist industry...ski resorts on both ends of our county and a few up-scale restaurants in the county seat.

They've had some good initial response but we al know what's that's worth...
 
I read an article that said the market for capons is about two hundred and fifty thousand compared to about 8 billion broilers. There is a niche market for them and they go for $89.00 each. A company that sells them on the east coast has problems filling the orders. If you can competently capon cockerels, you could make some cash--more from hiring out though then selling the capons.


Thanks! When I worked for Safeway in the meat department back in the 1980s, we sold capons sometimes. They seem to be a Christmas dinner item for some cultures.

That's part of the reason why I chose to try out white jersey giants. Mainly for myself for capons and then down the rode who knows what the future will bring. One advantage I would have is I'm about four hours from NYC where there is a market for them.
 
I am going to give you an opinion.

Good Mahogany color does not contrast well with black. They lose me with this variety. It does contrast well with blue, and black contrasts well with white and gold. The later three varieties have my eye, but perfecting the mahogany is losing the contrast with the black. To me they begin to look muddy.

Laced varieties are about the sharp contrasts in color. The intricate lines that nearly disappear on too dark of a base.

Some colors do not work with some patterns. Red or buff and barring do not go well together etc. etc.

Somebody liked them, and they will receive some attention for a time, but I predict those that are good at these colors will in time . . . leave this variety behind.

Now blue laced red . . . that can be pretty sharp.

Kind of like a Rhode Island Red etc Ron. It takes some looking to see the black tail.

I seen these a while back. http://redlaced.com/

Thank you for YOUR opinion...always welcomed and appreciated. In truth, the actual color(s) of the birds means very little to me (not sure about Ariel's opinion) but what the carcass evolves to in the first or even second generation.

With a superior carcass...I wouldn't really care if the birds were covered in pink feathers.

I 'killed' the initial order for the Black Laced Red Wyandottes because of information from a friend but I'm thinking now I might as well let my daughter have the darned things....15 of the things won't kill or take me to debtor's prison but they might put a smile on a sweet gals face.
 
And at the end of the day. THAT'S all that matters. I do what I do for the shear joy it brings me, and to satisfy that burning " WHAT IF " question. Pink feathers????? I'd call that a successful day.lol
 
Another idea I've had on capons is if the white giants don't work out as planned another breed I would try is 'Indian Rivers' with good big meaty breeder New Hampshires and Delawares to cross. I think they would make good capons and be a good seller as a breed also, there must be a market for them Cackle hatchery and e-fowl (probably gets them through Cackle) are sold out of their so called 'Indian Rivers' for the year early every yr.
Just dreaming at the moment but wouldn't hurt to raise a bunch for the family freezer for now.
 
Wouldn't you just know it. Ideal just called about some birds I had wait listed for the fall. They are available on the 10th. Of THIS MONTH. Too soon for me. Doctor visit and new meds shot my monthly budget right out of the saddle!
 

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