BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

That's the truth! I've got one, and he is tenacious. Sweet....but tenacious.

 

[Arielle]

The problem with the "build resistance philosophy" is a disease that is as likely as not have a 90% mortality rate. There is alot of really scary information out there on the Spanish influenza. We as poultry owner's are at higher risk. Then again I might fall out of the bathtub ( which Happens to me more than i like to admit ) and break my neck. What has to be avoided IMO is the knee jerk reaction the public has when they hear the sensationalized news media.Have no doubt. This is eventually going to have a major impact on the transportation of live birds

With this example, 10% survive and carry on producing the next generations. Whether or not it is enough to rebuild a large population is another matter.

A lot of "scary" is because most people don't have a clue about diseases and believe the news without questioning the information. They don't question it because there is not base knowledge to know we are not given all the facts. Mostly the news presents all information in a "scary " manner to generate viewership. I rely on my knowledge to question what info is missing or presented in a misleading manner to get ratings. ( or in the case of government, the opposite)

Quote: "High Pathogenic" -- while that is the term used to describe this avian flu , it doesn't answer ( not that I expect YOU to have the numbers) HOW pathogenic.

If a significant number of backyard flocks get sick, what will be the fall out. Complete banning of backyard chickens? A lucrative vaccination program??? Or stop culling sick flocks???? What might be the answer for a commercial operation, might be different than a backyard operation.

The answers that the "government" decides often puzzles me. pound wise, penny foolish comes to mind. "We" are painting ourselves into a corner, me thinks.

Never the less, first time exposure to a new disease can have "highly pathogenic" results. But that is not to say that ALL birds will die. We need the birds that survive exposure.

 

[Kev]

I love how brave and inquisitive the poults are. Much different than the chicks that run screaming to hide under their warming plate just because I walked by. Sure does make it hard to work in the pen with poults though, when they are all trying to either climb up on top of me, or fly out and explore.

Had a friend tell me she would never get turkeys again after the horrible toms that she had, but as long as our toms aren't trying to kill me, we will figure out how to deal with whatever they throw at us. Just a part of life when you want to live on a farm with animals.

You definitely have poults. It alternates between extremely charming or very annoying, ha!

There is some similarity with chickens- some lines will produce males that easily turn aggressive. Some lines they are so mellow, the aggressive ones really are the exceptions.

Other times it is a particular thing that sets a tom off. Red coloring seems to be a common trigger. Red shirt, shorts, shoes, even a bucket someone is carrying around..... Those reactive toms either are only aggressive when they are seeing their particular trigger at the moment and stop when it is not present any more. However with some, the trigger can turn them into an obnoxious bird even when the trigger is not present.

Unfortunately for some of them, a particular sort of person is their trigger- it can be small children for some, they are great and sweet with every one but they turn into beasts hell driven on smacking a small child around. It can be just women or just men.. or just women wearing skirts(I think in this case the skirt flowing around makes them think it is fighting motions they do to each other) and so on.

Sometimes a person will become unnerved by a tom in full display coming at them with no ill intents and they try to kick them away or start running... that can bring out bad attitudes in some toms once they learn this- again they can either keep this oriented at that particular person or start to apply it to everyone. For this reason it is a good idea not to let any one have fun teasing a turkey that is being sweet or harmless.

Once you get the hang of their quirks and know how to avoid them(and cull the lines that keep turning nasty), they really are nice to have around despite the occasional annoyance.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: I know that I have kept all my original birds from Chris M. because I was too scared to make a mistake by selecting the wrong birds. As one year olds I can see the mature bird and hopefully make a decision now. ( Well, honestly, I NEED to. The boys have staked out claims to various sections of the wood to defend, and only get cozy with each other at coop up time when they tolerate much closer proximity to each other. ) I do wish I had a mentor to help me go thru the birds one by one. Without that option, I watch the males. How they look over the top for width; length of back , spread between legs, thickness of legs, and overall health. Boy these are healthy birds. Not lost one yet other than a predator that reached under the coop.

 

[gjensen]

With this example, 10% survive and carry on producing the next generations. Whether or not it is enough to rebuild a large population is another matter.

A lot of "scary" is because most people don't have a clue about diseases and believe the news without questioning the information. They don't question it because there is not base knowledge to know we are not given all the facts. Mostly the news presents all information in a "scary " manner to generate viewership. I rely on my knowledge to question what info is missing or presented in a misleading manner to get ratings. ( or in the case of government, the opposite)

"High Pathogenic" -- while that is the term used to describe this avian flu , it doesn't answer ( not that I expect YOU to have the numbers) HOW pathogenic.

If a significant number of backyard flocks get sick, what will be the fall out. Complete banning of backyard chickens? A lucrative vaccination program??? Or stop culling sick flocks???? What might be the answer for a commercial operation, might be different than a backyard operation.

The answers that the "government" decides often puzzles me. pound wise, penny foolish comes to mind. "We" are painting ourselves into a corner, me thinks.

Never the less, first time exposure to a new disease can have "highly pathogenic" results. But that is not to say that ALL birds will die. We need the birds that survive exposure.

I was quoting the other, but the point could still be made.

First, I am no fan of the government so you will not get any resistance from me there.

Now for breeding for resistance. Do we really realize what that involves?

Let us say that 10% survive, and that might be a little optimistic. Too many possible variables. Now what are you going to do with the 10%? I hope you have a couple males in there.

OK. You hatch hundreds because you are smart enough to expect very heavy losses (are we prepared for that cost?). Now another 10-15% survive this round. Now you have to test mate all of your sires, and breed from the sons that perform the best concerning the numbers.

Just because the parent shows some resistance, it does not necessarily mean the characteristic is passed on to the offspring. Just as often it is not. You have to prove the parents by their offspring in % and nothing more. After, of course, you insure the level of exposure is absolutely even among the offspring. No other possible selection variables. Then this process begins, and with good breeding it can be carried forward from generation to generation. Starting at a 5-10% survival rate (surviving does not mean fit for breeding), it would require many many years to get a small flock to a 60% or more survival rate. That would also require a real time commitment and a lot of birds. A lot of dead birds.

And by the time you have made any real progress, the virus will have changed enough to set you back all over again. We get exposed to the flu (not a highly pathogenic type) every year, and we are certainly not immune.

In the mean time you are spreading it, perpetuating it, and allowing it opportunity to mutate. Even crossover.

Should this be done? Maybe. I am not so certain though. And certainly not in anyone's backyard.

This breeding for resistance fallacy is uniquely perpetuated on BYC. It can be done, but it is an actual and intelligent process. Not just killing sneezing birds. When we cull for health and vigor, we are as a result breeding more tolerant birds. BUT, we are doing it collectively over generations of breeders. Building on and passing down what others have started. True resistance breeding is about identifying the genetics behind it, and selecting for it over many generations and many many birds.

I suspect that vaccines will be how they deal with this, but it will be a long time before we would even be considered for it. They have no interest in us even existing.

 

[jbkirk]

I was quoting the other, but the point could still be made.

First, I am no fan of the government so you will not get any resistance from me there.

Now for breeding for resistance. Do we really realize what that involves?

Let us say that 10% survive, and that might be a little optimistic. Too many possible variables. Now what are you going to do with the 10%? I hope you have a couple males in there.

OK. You hatch hundreds because you are smart enough to expect very heavy losses (are we prepared for that cost?). Now another 10-15% survive this round. Now you have to test mate all of your sires, and breed from the sons that perform the best concerning the numbers.

Just because the parent shows some resistance, it does not necessarily mean the characteristic is passed on to the offspring. Just as often it is not. You have to prove the parents by their offspring in % and nothing more. After, of course, you insure the level of exposure is absolutely even among the offspring. No other possible selection variables. Then this process begins, and with good breeding it can be carried forward from generation to generation. Starting at a 5-10% survival rate (surviving does not mean fit for breeding), it would require many many years to get a small flock to a 60% or more survival rate. That would also require a real time commitment and a lot of birds. A lot of dead birds.

And by the time you have made any real progress, the virus will have changed enough to set you back all over again. We get exposed to the flu (not a highly pathogenic type) every year, and we are certainly not immune.

In the mean time you are spreading it, perpetuating it, and allowing it opportunity to mutate. Even crossover.

Should this be done? Maybe. I am not so certain though. And certainly not in anyone's backyard.

This breeding for resistance fallacy is uniquely perpetuated on BYC. It can be done, but it is an actual and intelligent process. Not just killing sneezing birds. When we cull for health and vigor, we are as a result breeding more tolerant birds. BUT, we are doing it collectively over generations of breeders. Building on and passing down what others have started. True resistance breeding is about identifying the genetics behind it, and selecting for it over many generations and many many birds.

I suspect that vaccines will be how they deal with this, but it will be a long time before we would even be considered for it. They have no interest in us even existing.

Yep. I totally agree.

 

[JRNash]

Ditto.

 

[JRNash]

Can youbeven imagine the cost a vaccine would cost?I don't hold out much hope in the government worrying about anyone but big money. Look at the American Farmer. Put out of business by the big corporations. In the end i will adopt gjensen's stance. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Only believe half of what you see. And nothing that you hear

 

[gjensen]

I know that I have kept all my original birds from Chris M. because I was too scared to make a mistake by selecting the wrong birds. As one year olds I can see the mature bird and hopefully make a decision now. ( Well, honestly, I NEED to. The boys have staked out claims to various sections of the wood to defend, and only get cozy with each other at coop up time when they tolerate much closer proximity to each other. ) I do wish I had a mentor to help me go thru the birds one by one. Without that option, I watch the males. How they look over the top for width; length of back , spread between legs, thickness of legs, and overall health. Boy these are healthy birds. Not lost one yet other than a predator that reached under the coop.

I understand the caution. Caution is wise early on. I was and it is still my tendency. You have to kill some birds eventually though.

You would have an easier time just comparing two to start. Weigh them. Feel them etc. Look at the heads, heart girth, the length of keel . . .all of the above. Move the best bird into one cage, and the inferior in the other. Now do another pair. Soon you have them cut in half. Now do the better half again, putting the lesser birds in a third pen. Now in theory you are down to the best 1/3. If you started with 12 males, you are down to four.
The point is keep it simple and do not get overwhelmed by all of them at once. Eat your bottom third, and wait and watch to be sure on the second batch. You can do any number of things. Heck just simply killing the bottom bird is one less bird to sort through.

I saw a video of late that may give you more confidence. You are a very intelligent person, and this is not rocket science. You could be the Buckeye Queen if you chose. If I can find the video, I will send it to you.

Do you have a Standard? If you do not, get one. You would not regret the purchase. There is plenty in there for everyone.

And get some good pictures to Chris. I could help, but he would have a better eye for that breed.

 

[hellbender]

Some years back, I made a run with about 20 Bourbon Red turkeys. They were easy to get along with and not especially difficult to feed because they free ranged for quite a lot of their own food and were free and prolific breeders. My biggest problem is that I don't really care for the flesh, neither dark nor white. I was here alone at that time and got a good offer on the whole flock and took it but would consider them again if the others could convince me me they were really up to adding another species of fowl..I'd even consider a different breed that was self-sustaining.

For my part, If another species is to be brought in, I would actually lobby heavily for Muscovies. In my mind, they are the only water fowl worth having around. (Not being argumentative...just expressing my opinion).