BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

Well. If you ask for advice, take it gratefully, even if you disagree with the answer given. Take everything you hear, and filter it through your perceptions, circumstances, and needs. Everybody has their own viewpoint, with their filtering already performed.

Now, can we get back to talking chicken?
 
I cannot make any specific recommendations. What you do is do it when you want to. That is how you figure out if that is what you want ot not. Some successfully hatch all year round. Some like me, like more of a seasonal rhythm. I hatch later than most show folks, but some here said that I hatch too early. Only you can make sense of it. All I can do is share experiences, insights, and a perspective. Listen to what I say, but do not do as I say. I listen to everyone, but I will do what I decide to do.

ETA: Consider the day length that they need to lay reliably. You want the egg size up for hatching. I emphasize hens, but it can be necessary to hatch from some pullets. The chicks from smaller eggs hatch smaller. They do catch up, but it is worth considering. Do the math, and back track. That will help give you a starting point.


My Catalanas reach point of lay around 20 wks. I want them a couple weeks later, but they can be a couple weeks earlier. If I hatch them in March, they will reach point of lay in August. That is not bad. The first year I had them, I hatched in January. They all molted (the earliest ones) in their first winter.
I want to beat the heat. I like my cockerels to reach 75% of their growth by the time our most brutal heat gets here. They grow a lot slower in the extreme heat. July is very hot here, and it often is from mid June. As early as May, but I cannot control the weather. So, I want them hatched by March 1st. The cockerels are 16wks old by July 1st, and the pullets are laying by August 1st. The pullets have been laying 8wks by Oct 1st. I do wish the pullets were laying two weeks later.
I liked my NHs hatching a few weeks earlier for similar reasons.

This is a general description. I am not precise. March is my biggest hatching month though. March is a good time for me. I do not like hatching much earlier, but I will probably do that this coming season. I need to hatch from three males, and from the same hens. That means I will start early. Like I said, I like to beat the heat.

The problem is that some of that depends on your birds. Whether they are cycling in or out, so are you speaking of fall or spring? They tend to lay better in lower light cycling in than cycling out. A pullet does better coming into lay, than a hen going out of lay (in lower light). 14hrs is a good reference for full lay. Did you notice when your hens started to molt? Use molting hens as a reference. Ideally, your pullets are laying before your hens quit.

All extremely helpful (including the hatching egg size issue). And your last comment seems to fit with the idea of fall hatched pullets coming into lay being more likely to lay during short days (if I understand correctly). (Paula is laying regularly so far, around 2 hours later each day.)

What's interesting about your heat comment is that this is confirmed for me in looking at my weekly growth curves - you can see what I believe is the affect of heat. The current batch of chicks hatched September 9. The week after I moved the chicks outside (second week in October), there was a last "heat wave" where it was 95-98 every day that week, and the growth curve slowed down (although there is also the move itself to consider). The two subsequent weeks the rate has increased again. (If I felt like doing the derivatives, I could plot by rate of growth...). For what it's worth, here is the latest NN chart. The slow down during the heat wave was from weeks 4-5. It has cooled down, and though they did ok with the heat (no prostration or major panting), they certainly seem more comfortable now...



I DO already know I don't want to hatch fall chicks here before October 1. (This matches usual meat bird practice here in my area...) And it gets to about 100F as early as May as well. So my windows could be a bit narrow. Looks like February/March may be what I aim for in a spring hatching. Then I can see how that goes and adjust...

- Ant Farm
 
For anyone here with experience allowing a broody hen to raise chicks, are there any signs I should watch for in determining when "mama hen" is ready to leave her chicks behind? My broody and babies are in their own protected pen and run so she can't just run away and leave them behind, but I think she's giving hints of tiring of them. The chicks are 4 weeks old now and very close to being fully feathered, but I'm not sure if I should try separating them yet.
 
Reintegrate them with the flock and let her decide. Some detach early and some take quite a while but each are individual. If you integrate them, she can teach them how to roost, where to roost, how to act at the feeder, etc. You'll know she's ready when you see her with her flock mates more and more and with the chicks less and less. Then the chicks will form their own flock for awhile.
 
For anyone here with experience allowing a broody hen to raise chicks, are there any signs I should watch for in determining when "mama hen" is ready to leave her chicks behind? My broody and babies are in their own protected pen and run so she can't just run away and leave them behind, but I think she's giving hints of tiring of them. The chicks are 4 weeks old now and very close to being fully feathered, but I'm not sure if I should try separating them yet.

I could tell the mother hen was tired of her chicks when she didn't call them to the feeder as I refilled it.
Angela
 
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Here's an extra 2 cents and sort of a question...doesn't the capon get bigger than young birds? If so, the food expended on getting the bird to an older age would be cost effective in that respect~more feed, more money, but yields more meat and~supposedly, just as tender as a young bird? Don't know because I've never done it nor eaten a capon, but it seems much like cutting a bull calf and for much the same reasons. Sure, you could just eat that calf when it was really young and avoid all that cutting and time to grow it out, but you'd also have less meat than growing it out to butchering size and that meat would have a different taste/quality.

Say, if you fed two birds~one caponed, the other not~for 8 months and the capon turned out bigger than the uncut male, with more fat throughout the meat, on the same amount of food, wouldn't this be an efficient use of that time and money? Eating young birds only saves money but it yields less meat, so if one wanted a bigger bird but one that put on more meat/fat during the time it was held over, wouldn't that be as broad as it is long? It would also have the benefit of not having to be penned separately from the flock due to mating/fighting issues, so it wouldn't require more money in that regard either.

To me, saying it's more efficient cost wise to eat a young bird doesn't make much sense...small money, small bird. More feed/money, bigger bird. In the end, same amount of money spent per pound of meat, I would imagine, but the quality of meat(more fat within the meat fibers?) would be different/better/?.
 
Here's an extra 2 cents and sort of a question...doesn't the capon get bigger than young birds? If so, the food expended on getting the bird to an older age would be cost effective in that respect~more feed, more money, but yields more meat and~supposedly, just as tender as a young bird? Don't know because I've never done it nor eaten a capon, but it seems much like cutting a bull calf and for much the same reasons. Sure, you could just eat that calf when it was really young and avoid all that cutting and time to grow it out, but you'd also have less meat than growing it out to butchering size and that meat would have a different taste/quality.

Say, if you fed two birds~one caponed, the other not~for 8 months and the capon turned out bigger than the uncut male, with more fat throughout the meat, on the same amount of food, wouldn't this be an efficient use of that time and money? Eating young birds only saves money but it yields less meat, so if one wanted a bigger bird but one that put on more meat/fat during the time it was held over, wouldn't that be as broad as it is long? It would also have the benefit of not having to be penned separately from the flock due to mating/fighting issues, so it wouldn't require more money in that regard either.

To me, saying it's more efficient cost wise to eat a young bird doesn't make much sense...small money, small bird. More feed/money, bigger bird. In the end, same amount of money spent per pound of meat, I would imagine, but the quality of meat(more fat within the meat fibers?) would be different/better/?.
Lemme find the pic ...

That's a 12 week old cockerel next to a 24 week old slip (caponized, but grew back). Both from hatcheries. The batch of capon/slips is now about 10 months old (hatched mid-January) and have filled out. Only one of the remaining seven tries to crow, and then only once or maybe twice a morning. I think I know which one ... we'll see after I rearrange cockerels and slaughter a few. The weather has not quite cooled enough for a large-scale canning party.

Somewhere in my bookmarks is a link to a study (Canadian?) with a picture of the leg quarters of: a full cockerel, a slip, and a full capon. The cockerel's leg is the darkest, although the slip's is darker than a capon's it isn't as dark as the cockerel. They were all the same age, although I don't recall specifically what age.
 
So...the answer is "No, they don't get bigger."? If so, I'm wondering why one would even bother.

To some...(Apparently quite a few), the quality and taste of the meat as well as additional yield to some degree, if allowed to age, is far superior to the meat of young birds...either farm raised youngsters or the 6 week-wonders found at the market. Unless one has tasted a well prepared capon, they have no point of reference.

Not a big deal. Many people who don't have the experience or desire to caponize a bird are willing to pay upwards of $80 bucks for a 10 pound capon. They can't all be crazy and the Chinese caponize chickens by the multi-millions. There must be something to it.


http://www.dartagnan.com/all-natural-free-range-capon/product/FCAPO002-1.html


Show me a farm cockerel that looks like this and show me a cornishX that would come near to tasting as good as one of these...
lau.gif
 
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You and I both know the price fools pay for certain things is no test or proof of its worth.
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No dead chicken, unless it's gold plated and one could melt down that gold and cash it in for $75, is worth $80. No matter how much they want to say it is...it's just chicken.

Much like the Bresse...just free ranged chicken finished on buttermilk. Like that's some mysterious practice that no one else has ever done nor can do in the world.
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It sounds much like the Emperor's new clothes. I'm not denying it could possibly be a tasty bird, as my own birds are more tasty than any I've had elsewhere for various reasons...but they still ain't worth $80. It's chicken.

If there isn't considerable gains made, I doubt I'd go through the trouble.....unless, of course, I had fools lined up with $80 in their pockets, just waiting for their chicken with the new clothes.
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But then, that's me...I can up all my birds anyway, so no point in growing one designed for broiling in the oven.
 
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