BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

My reason for wanting to eat older birds(capon or not) ,as well as for wanting to free range is nutrient density. I just can't imagine that an older bird has not had time to accumulate more in its flesh and bones than a younger bird. Since I make stock from every chicken I cook this may be more important to me then it is to others.


Your reasoning seems good to me but I also like the flavor.
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I totally agree with both of you. I've eaten a few of my younger culls and even though the meat is more tender without having to tenderize it, the flavor and "richness" just isn't there. The last cockerel I ate was about 40 weeks old and that dark meat was the color of beef and tasted amazing. After eating the birds I've raised, the chicken in grocery stores and restaurants just don't compare. And you're right about the stock, too. I always make stock from the bones, feet, etc and it's just so much tastier than that boxed stuff from the store.
 
I will share a story of my life with chickens and the evolution of my breeding strategy, for self sustaining pasture based chickens raised in house, with no bought chicks.

So, like most of us, I was born. That is where this story begins. My Grandma was old, she only had one chicken. The chicken house had fallen into disrepair, mom and dad didn't like chicken poop, Grandma couldn't take care of things anymore, so that was that. I remember asking grandma to hold me up to the window so I could see "chick-hen". She died in a snowstorm when I was like five, (chick-hen, not Granny). I still picked Grandma's brain, of her life with chickens, all the different breeds, outlined in a tattered hatchery catalog. And so it was, through many bleak years, Mom and Dad pointing out all of the things that would go wrong if we got chickens, hordes of ravaging foxes, mite infestations of biblical proportions, and the multimillion dollar feed bill. On through the bleak years, Grandma passed. Then a bright spot. I got married. To a girl who appreciated agricultural endeavors, no less. She became my great enabler.

One of the first things I did was build a barn. Then a home. (Still working on that one). Order some chicks. Instant happiness. And so it went, rattling through the years. Order a different breed every year, or heck, an assortment. By the time the dark egger craze hit, we had graduated through several incubators, up to a giant cabinet incubator and a hatcher. We were doing hundreds of chicks, fancy dark egg layers, some meat birds, selling day olds up through point of lay pullets, good times. Then the kids came. No more time for hundreds of chicks. We quit hatching. Just bought an assortment, ate the roosters, kept the layers, sell them off and have another batch coming on.

By that time, there seemed to be a lot of people raising chicks. I was no longer interested in "ordinary" chickens. I became interested in the various, colorful gamefowl breeds. They had cool, obscure names, and there socially unacceptable heritage made them somewhat rare, but not have eggs shipped through customs rare. Just some little play pretties off to the side. At first, I was pretty turned off by the oriental games. Then through a twist of fate, I ended up with one. I was instantly taken with their raw ugliness, grace, and because they lack natural fear responses found in most chickens, they are just the doggone friendliest things on earth. I mean take a rooster for a ride to the landfill with you friendly. How cool is it to take your pullet fishing.

So, integrating that into a pasture based meat and egg production system was the next logical step. There are no incubators or brooders in use now. I have hens that can do a far better job. They can take better care of them than I can, and I am tractoring around small, easy to move pens, with smaller numbers of chicks, and in some cases letting hens free range their broods. I raise a few orientals on the first brood and then on the second and third broods I am raisng replacement layers in small batches, so hopefully I will have seamless egg production. I have butchered some of the games and it is apparent that the Cornish owes it's meat heritage to the Asil, they are some thick breasted little things. My Ga Noi are interesting me, I have enough now that I should be able to do some experimental crossing, on dual purpose heritage breeds, I have some BLR Wyandottes and some buff Orpingtons, from one of the accidental breedings I had, I am expecting near Cornish X performance on a hen raised pastured chick. My Asils are small, but I am planning on crossing some of them on some Dorkings, ought to get a plump breasted little bird from that cross. I know that I am definitely onto something with the tight feathered big breasted oriental crossed on the heritage types, they are getting a real kick from the hybrid vigor and both parent lines are easily self replicated. So now you know my system and how it came about.

Great story! I hope you'll share some photos of your birds with us soon...hint, hint.
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Here is a pic I took of some carcasses from some oriental game blend

cockerels that were free ranged from about 10 days old until about 20 weeks. They were delicious. I've tried a lot of breeds and these make a nice carcass for a free range foraging bird. Carcasses were around 4 pounds.
 
I plan on doing both, already have done the young. I feel why feed$ something your not going to keep. I only need enough layers to keep us in eggs, I don't want to sell eggs, and until I try my hand at caponizing having more cockerels than I need for breeding is not worth the trouble. Yeah more feed gives you more meat but when $ and space is a factor, I'll eat some. Next spring hopefully I hatch all cockerels Lol, and can try capons, never had one and like the idea. My main reason for capons is the fact I can raise many of them and not have a bunch of fighting, raping (those poor hens when you have to many cockerels) roosters.
I do have a extra cockerel of the giants and sussex so eventually I will be eating them at a full grown age. Glad I kept the extra sussex I was going to cull because his comb was flopped over slightly, It now stands up straight and he is bigger than the other with a fuller breast. Of the giants I've read in a old book the slower growing lankier less meaty cockerel will end up when full grown the largest, so I'm keeping two of those also, I'll decide which one gets to live/breed in the spring.
When culling all the ones I didn't plan on breeding I ended up deciding to keep one other large giant cockerel, very large bird but leg color not as good as the others, just to see how big he will get. Kept him in the big coop. Plan on sitting him on top of a beer can on the grill, slow cooked after a long marinade soak sometime this winter when he gets some more meat on him.

Varidgerunner, I have those 'black meat things' and will have capons, but I'll not be paying what others pay to eat them, cost of feed only.
I'll eat like a king on a peasant's budget Lol!
 
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Fm, melonistic, (black meat things) are very tasty. The Fm meat has a sweeter taste, subtle, I mean it is still chicken, it doesn't magically taste like lobster or anything. But it does have a different, and very pleasant flavor.
 
Here's an extra 2 cents and sort of a question...doesn't the capon get bigger than young birds? If so, the food expended on getting the bird to an older age would be cost effective in that respect~more feed, more money, but yields more meat and~supposedly, just as tender as a young bird? Don't know because I've never done it nor eaten a capon, but it seems much like cutting a bull calf and for much the same reasons. Sure, you could just eat that calf when it was really young and avoid all that cutting and time to grow it out, but you'd also have less meat than growing it out to butchering size and that meat would have a different taste/quality.

Say, if you fed two birds~one caponed, the other not~for 8 months and the capon turned out bigger than the uncut male, with more fat throughout the meat, on the same amount of food, wouldn't this be an efficient use of that time and money? Eating young birds only saves money but it yields less meat, so if one wanted a bigger bird but one that put on more meat/fat during the time it was held over, wouldn't that be as broad as it is long? It would also have the benefit of not having to be penned separately from the flock due to mating/fighting issues, so it wouldn't require more money in that regard either.

To me, saying it's more efficient cost wise to eat a young bird doesn't make much sense...small money, small bird. More feed/money, bigger bird. In the end, same amount of money spent per pound of meat, I would imagine, but the quality of meat(more fat within the meat fibers?) would be different/better/?.


This is an overly simplistic view. You could answer your own answer if you thought about it. I will answer the answer for others to sort through.

I am going to explain again that I have no objections to caponizing birds, and will admit that I am interested. There is the possibility of enjoying the benefits of a unique product. I will add again that it does add the necessity of more resources (feed), and therefore an added cost. If the product is worth the added cost, then it is worth the production.
A breed that I am working with is still used to produce capon in Spain. It is the Spanish La Bresse. The French only market theirs better. It is a unique product that chefs serve, people buy at the market, and pay a lot more for. That is the niche that they can fill here.

Slow growing large breeds were preferred here, historically. That is the entire rationalization behind the Jersey Giant. That is also why they fell into obscurity. Cost. Replaced by what? The chicken? No. The Turkey. The Turkey replaced the caponized Jersey Giants. They were more cost effective.

This is what is old becoming new again. This has been played out for us to see. A simple elementary review of the history of this practice in this country is revealing on it's own. There are real reasons that we quit doing it. We grew past it. I think it is a shame that we have lost it, and I like seeing the interest in it. We should just be honest with each other and ourselves about what it takes and what it is.

I even wonder (and I have) if it would not be a better way to market our "heritage" breeds.

The reason it costs more, has been explained countless times. It is elementarily simple. It is not a time vs. lbs, as you did not think past. It is lbs. vs. lbs. It is the pounds of feed per pounds of gain. I will repeat the value in understanding the growth curve again. Anything beyond the peak of the curve is more pounds of feed per pound of gain. Anything past that curve costs more (in resources). The farther you get away from it, the more each pound gained costs. There is no way around that, and there is no way to change it. The numbers do not lie. It is not that I want it to be that way, it is that it is that way. I have only tried to explain this (for a long time) because it is an important factor to consider.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but how much I pay for something matters to me. I like to take this into consideration.

Pounds of feed per pound of gain is as simple of an equation as there is. We factor similar things when we figure pounds of feed per dozen eggs, or pounds of feed per pounds of dressed weight. It demonstrates accurately what we are getting out of what we are putting in. It does not factor in time, labor, etc. etc. It is only the bare investment compared to the return.

Capon, is not a cost effective way to produce poultry meat. That does not mean that any perceived value added does not make the production worthwhile. That is determined by the producer and/or the consumer.
 
Fm, melonistic, (black meat things) are very tasty. The Fm meat has a sweeter taste, subtle, I mean it is still chicken, it doesn't magically taste like lobster or anything. But it does have a different, and very pleasant flavor.

I bought six TSC 'silkies' in April, definitely not show birds, but better in my opinion for my uses. Grew very fast and very quick to lay and lay great, medium brown eggs, show birds don't. I don't remember at how many weeks they started but have been getting four to five eggs every day from five, all summer. I've never had any breed even leghorns or sexlink lay that early, usually months later. The cockerel is six and a half pounds, way bigger then a show bird.
I haven't tried any yet, was hoping for more then one cockerel so I could. I just can't bring my self to cull good laying ones, maybe this winter they will stop laying and I can try the two that have no crests.
Want to try them in Chinese silkie soup, can get most of the ingredients myself, planted a goji/wolfberry plant this summer, going to start maitake and shiitake mushrooms on oak logs in the spring, and I know where some ginseng plants for roots are.
They are probably crossed with something being hatchery, but still have very black skin and five toes, silkie feathering.
 
I bought six TSC 'silkies' in April, definitely not show birds, but better in my opinion for my uses. Grew very fast and very quick to lay and lay great, medium brown eggs, show birds don't. I don't remember at how many weeks they started but have been getting four to five eggs every day from five, all summer. I've never had any breed even leghorns or sexlink lay that early, usually months later. The cockerel is six and a half pounds, way bigger then a show bird.
I haven't tried any yet, was hoping for more then one cockerel so I could. I just can't bring my self to cull good laying ones, maybe this winter they will stop laying and I can try the two that have no crests.
Want to try them in Chinese silkie soup, can get most of the ingredients myself, planted a goji/wolfberry plant this summer, going to start maitake and shiitake mushrooms on oak logs in the spring, and I know where some ginseng plants for roots are.
They are probably crossed with something being hatchery, but still have very black skin and five toes, silkie feathering.
I believe my flock's Fm originates in silkie many gens back not by me. They do not have the silkie feathering, but occasionally will have some "leg stubble" so far (thankfully) no actual leg feathering. I am working on increasing the size. So far my fm birds are smaller and my regular birds bigger. My projects are slower moving then others I live in town and can't hatch hundreds of birds (well I could if I could bring myself to kill lots of babies) This is my first generation to have a nice dark fm boy, I have several hens nice and dark, he is smaller then I hoped for, but such a nice dark color I may let him have a small flock of the dark fm girls to hatch out at least one good batch from that mating. I can't keep separate flocks long term, or multiple roos long term.
 
I never cared for silkie meat personally., but I know some cultures like it. I think the idea behind caponizing Is that, if you are working with slow growing heritage breeds, that have been bred for early production, you end up with a cockerel that grows a large bony frame quickly, then hits a stage of sexual maturity that rapidly stops his growth curve. This leaves you with a bony bird eating tons of feed and not growing This has been my experience with reds, buffs, rocks etc. One of the things I have noticed with my birds, they grow, and then become sexually mature. By the time they would have anything big enough to find to caponize, they are butcher size. When I dealt with Cochins and Brahmas, they were slow developing all the way around, got enormous, but took a year.
 

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