BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[bnjrob]

Do you really want my opinion or do you want me to agree that what your doing is okay? I think medicated chick starter and starter grower products are esential to get your birds growing and healthy first before you try to bulk them up. The protein level is actually higher than you might think. I believe the product we use on our chicks and juveniles is 18% up until they are about 13 weeks old and coop ready. At that point, I have my meat birds on a slightly different diet than my egg layers. Tinkering with protein and supplements is pretty crucial to how your chickens evolve and thrive.
Excessive high levels of 20% protein or greater "may" cause bleeding if fed to them too early on and possibly long term. Both feed reps from Purina and Nutrogena from my local feed store agree on this. There are time points throughout the yearly cycle that chickens need added protein which can benefit not only their health but also maintain growth and weight. Dont be led down the path that more is greater!
Keep in mind that chickens aren't turkeys and will never be! The quality of what you bring to the table is more important. It is important you recognize the standard norm weight of your breed and what size you can expect that bird to reach at full maturity. Strive to reach the max weight within that breed and keep them healthy and tasty! Or, make them great egg layers if that is your goal. They are what you feed them.

We have true heritage, standard-bred Javas which are fed a 24% chick starter for 4 months and switch to the 21% Purina Flock Raiser after that. We've fed this regimen for years without any problems. We do not feed medicated chick starter, which simply contains amprolium to help guard against coccidiosis. And yet we have never had a problem with coccidiosis even though we don't feed medicated feed, while poultry breeders I know that have good husbandry methods use medicated feed because they can't seem to keep coccidiosis under control without the medicated feed. Never have our birds exhibited any adverse reactions from feeding our chosen dietary regimen. Our birds are quite healthy and we not only can see them from the outside, but we also see them from the inside because we butcher our birds to eat. And being that I am a registered nurse and my husband is a veterinarian, we know what we are looking at when we are examining a live bird or looking at a dead bird's internal structures.


What you feed depends on many, many variables. There is not a one-size-fits-all. Purina and Nutrena and all the other companies may tell you there is, but they are trying to sell their products. The feed reps are not veterinarians or poultry scientists with nutrition education and experience. While I would believe what a feed rep told me about their product, because they are supposed to be able to answer some basic questions about the products they sell, I would not assume they knew much of anything else about the nutrition needed for my chickens in my situation. Taking the feed rep's word as gospel without doing my own research and applying it to my own situation is as bad as going to Tractor Supply and letting them give me medical advice about my poultry when their only level of expertise is "This is what most people buy for that problem and they say that it works."

 

[bnjrob]

Hmm, never had any problems, never had bumble foot. But back to the drawing board. Great there is so many here with experience, I've heard so much conflicting info.

My sussex and giants were started on 24%, and then 20, but after the hawk attack and being put with the older laying flock they were on 16% for quite some time. When I culled all non-breeders and segregated the sussex and giants out I noticed the culls were not no where near as heavy as the cockerels of other breeds I processed last yr, so I put them back on 20%.

I wasn't concerned about the giants weight the frame size is there, they are huge but don't put on meat until later.
I've been told giants need more protein, and I've been told the opposite. I know large breed dogs are not supposed to be feed high protein, but chickens are not dogs?

I had excellent growth and no problems supplementing RIR, Wellies, Cochins, etc. cockerels last yr with extra protein, cottage cheese, condensed whey, ground fish. They did free range all day.

Comparing them to the sussex this yr on butcher weight I was actually wrong, I had put them as four weeks older than they were, the wife corrected me, wrote down June, it was July oops, (had to double check the date I took pics of the chicks cause I didn't believe her Lol)
guess their growth was better than I thought, they are much meatier now...Lol

The only bumble foot we've ever had were in adult birds that we acquired that were kept in pens with concrete floors. After fixing their feet, they have not had bumble foot since then, and have been on the same diet that all our chickens have been on for years. There are many things that are thought to be connected - like someone with diabetes being more likely to have heart disease - but things are not always as simple as they appear to be. And often people correlate a problem with something else when in fact the two things are entirely separate issues. I've seen this in human healthcare and my husband sees it all the time in animal healthcare. And even well-educated scientists can be, and often are, wrong with correlating cause and effect. You have to gather information and apply it to the situation to determine if it is applicable.

 

[Shan30]

Well I read to Page 204 of the thread and didn't find what I was looking for so I'm just going to ask!

I wound up with a white Chantecler rooster and five hens from a breeder completely by accident and am considering breeding them for primarily meat. I never intended to have this breed but over the last couple years they have become some of my favorites. All moulting right now though so no eggs

Anyways I was hoping to hear from people who had processed the breed in the past and could give me some idea of processing ages, weight and meat quality.

I currently breed ameraucanas and process most of the cockerels but I would never consider breeding them for meat. Too much feed and time for too little meat.

Hoping that the chanteclers would be wildly different...?

 

[bramblefir]

I would certainly agree that there has to be balance in the feed and that the quality of the nutrient source is also very important. Just recently I was diagnosed with iron-deficiency anemia and now need to take iron supplements for the remainder of my pregnancy as well as really focus on increasing the naturally iron-rich foods in my diet. Also important is to consume acidic sources of Vitamin C which increases the body's uptake of iron and limit (to some extent) calcium which hinders iron uptake. I was very surprised to learn that the iron in iron-fortified foods is actually not digestible. There is literally no point in eating those foods to increase your iron supply - it passes right through your system.

As to balance, too much of anything isn't good. A chicken's kidneys will process the extra nutrients as waste. An overage of any nutrients will put extra stress on the kidneys which can result in problems like kidney stones, gout, or even a total failure of the kidneys. Chronic or acute dehydration can also bring about the same issues. I have one hen currently with articular gout and she's the only bird I've had with it in 13ish years of chicken keeping. In her case I suspect a genetic predisposition rather than management. I've had a few cases of bumblefoot, but they occurred soon after we cut down a massive amount of blackberry canes in their primary pasture. The occurrences of bumblefoot have disappeared now that the canes have decayed.

 

[hellbender]

Well I read to Page 204 of the thread and didn't find what I was looking for so I'm just going to ask!

I wound up with a white Chantecler rooster and five hens from a breeder completely by accident and am considering breeding them for primarily meat. I never intended to have this breed but over the last couple years they have become some of my favorites. All moulting right now though so no eggs

Anyways I was hoping to hear from people who had processed the breed in the past and could give me some idea of processing ages, weight and meat quality.

I currently breed ameraucanas and process most of the cockerels but I would never consider breeding them for meat. Too much feed and time for too little meat.

Hoping that the chanteclers would be wildly different...?

I don't think you will be disappointed with the Chantecler carcass.

 

[DesertChic]

High proteins feeds can be pretty corrosive to the digestive tract, causing scours and possible bleeding of the intestinal walls. That's so for many animals. Old timers used to refer to that as "burning an animal up"...not sure why they call it that. I know we used to use calf manna to get our meat rabbits ready for show but you couldn't use too much of it as it would give them the runs and cause the opposite effect desired.

I've read that high proteins diets in birds can increase occurrence of bumble foot due to gout and also cause visceral gout. I sometimes think a lot of the leg problems experienced by broiler birds are due to a high pro diet combined with young, developing kidneys. Same for the heart disease they experience.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2497
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=571
http://www.poultryshowcentral.com/chicken_gout.html

Everyone gets all excited about a balanced diet when discussing chickens but they refuse to see that proteins need to added to that list of balanced ingredients in the feed. For some reason in recent years there's been a huge switch to giving ever increasingly more protein to chickens...I think folks believe that will cause better laying and better health, but it's just not so. Too much of a good thing can kill ya. As with all things, a chicken can only metabolize so much of it before the excess is excreted in the kidneys and sometimes they cannot handle the overload, which is where uric crystals come in to play.

Ha, its good that you should ask the "science" behind it. Early on I was feeding my chickens a feed labled for turkey, game birds and or meat bird poultry. It didn't specifically declare meat chickens and was at a 24% protein level. I started noticing blood in their stools and a tad around their beaks coming from within. It was at this point I inquired a feed and grain specialist from the manufacturers of these products. Certain feed products are designed for certain livestock. My wrong. In reality, it did more harm than good in my case as that feed was not intended for meat bird chickens. Sorry but I didnt get into the specifics of what the limitations of protein are desired or used. Most manufactured chicken feeds are 16% by design with added nutrients. I personally prefer 18% for all my birds. I found a 20% feed for meat birds and mix it with the 16% to achieve that medium of around 18% protein level. I hope that answered partly your question.

I meant to add that I only feed them this ratio during the fall and winter months.

This is outstanding information! One thing I wonder about though....are the 20%+ higher protein diets as detrimental when the chickens are also given complete access to green forage? I only ask because I've noticed that even as chicks, my birds will sometimes consume more of the chicken feed and other days barely touch it in favor of grass and veggies. When given all options, it at least appears to me that they may know what to do to maintain optimal health.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

This is outstanding information! One thing I wonder about though....are the 20%+ higher protein diets as detrimental when the chickens are also given complete access to green forage? I only ask because I've noticed that even as chicks, my birds will sometimes consume more of the chicken feed and other days barely touch it in favor of grass and veggies. When given all options, it at least appears to me that they may know what to do to maintain optimal health.

I was thinking the exact same thing, as that is essentially a "dilution" of protein usually. Also, re: the 20%, I just looked at the Flock Raiser bag and it indicates that it is fine for backyard chickens up to 18 weeks old - and it is 20% protein. So I can't imagine why the Purina rep would say that 20% protein would rot out a chickens gut or otherwise be harmful - I doubt they would recommend it otherwise.... For what it's worth...

Seems like per the Purina bag (again, just as one source of info, take it or leave it), up to 18 weeks the starter/grower (lower protein) is more for layer-specific/specialist or show birds, and the flock raiser is fine for everyone else.

- Ant Farm

 

[hellbender]

This is outstanding information! One thing I wonder about though....are the 20%+ higher protein diets as detrimental when the chickens are also given complete access to green forage? I only ask because I've noticed that even as chicks, my birds will sometimes consume more of the chicken feed and other days barely touch it in favor of grass and veggies. When given all options, it at least appears to me that they may know what to do to maintain optimal health.

Not much chanced of protein over-load on most common grasses. If they have access to legumes such as alfalfa, that could be a problem.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I was thinking the exact same thing, as that is essentially a "dilution" of protein usually. Also, re: the 20%, I just looked at the Flock Raiser bag and it indicates that it is fine for backyard chickens up to 18 weeks old - and it is 20% protein. So I can't imagine why the Purina rep would say that 20% protein would rot out a chickens gut or otherwise be harmful - I doubt they would recommend it otherwise.... For what it's worth...

Seems like per the Purina bag (again, just as one source of info, take it or leave it), up to 18 weeks the starter/grower (lower protein) is more for layer-specific/specialist or show birds, and the flock raiser is fine for everyone else.

- Ant Farm

I am unsure why you consider bugs and tender forage to be lower than 20% protein?

I fed my breeder Wyandottes 30% protein gamechick starter ~ 6 months and their chicks the same for 6-12 weeks before switching to 20% flockraiser. No one had bumblefoot or bleeding from any orifice. The adults looked much better on the 30% than they currently do, fresh from a molt on 20%. I just don't see the point in spending an extra $5 per bag if I am not conditioning them for breeding. A few years ago, I had ducks and chickens, all on Flockraiser, and they all thrived. Opinions are fine, but your flock's performance is more important.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[Kassaundra]

I would certainly agree that there has to be balance in the feed and that the quality of the nutrient source is also very important. Just recently I was diagnosed with iron-deficiency anemia and now need to take iron supplements for the remainder of my pregnancy as well as really focus on increasing the naturally iron-rich foods in my diet. Also important is to consume acidic sources of Vitamin C which increases the body's uptake of iron and limit (to some extent) calcium which hinders iron uptake. I was very surprised to learn that the iron in iron-fortified foods is actually not digestible. There is literally no point in eating those foods to increase your iron supply - it passes right through your system.

As to balance, too much of anything isn't good. A chicken's kidneys will process the extra nutrients as waste. An overage of any nutrients will put extra stress on the kidneys which can result in problems like kidney stones, gout, or even a total failure of the kidneys. Chronic or acute dehydration can also bring about the same issues. I have one hen currently with articular gout and she's the only bird I've had with it in 13ish years of chicken keeping. In her case I suspect a genetic predisposition rather than management. I've had a few cases of bumblefoot, but they occurred soon after we cut down a massive amount of blackberry canes in their primary pasture. The occurrences of bumblefoot have disappeared now that the canes have decayed.

I don't know if this is accurate or not, but have always heard if you cook in cast iron, especially your more acid longer cooked things (like spaghetti sauce, chilli, soup, etc..) it will increase your dietary iron. I've never had a problem so never seriously looked into it, and I always cook in cast iron anyway.