BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[gjensen]

It just seems that so many think that they can maintain a line with 20 hens and a couple of roosters. This can set you up for problems. If you lose one and didn't make the right pick on the other one, you are done.

If you are fortunate to be able to collaborate with someone on a closely related line, it can make things easier. Hard to find someone that shares your goals to a tee.

You can go a long time with 4 cocks and 20 hens. 2 cocks is asking for trouble unless you have a partner with similar ideals. Still a third male is a good idea.

The old adage is keep half as many cocks again as you will use. In other words four families means 4 cocks. 2 more for assurance equaling six.

In my Catalanas, I have 5 breeding males. That is enough for what I am doing. I can go a very long time with what I am doing.

So much of this depends on how many we hatch. There is depth and variability in the qty. we hatch. So much more depends on the emphasis on vigor.

It is impossible to understate how important selection is concerning vigor.

An outcross is inevitable at some point. There is no getting around that. We cannot have breeder flocks in the hundreds (or thousands) like they did in 1930. The difference is when we will have to outcross. The more depth, the less often. The more rare of a breed that we have, may mean that we want to be able to go longer.

Someone can run with a couple quads for five or six years with no problems. They will need an outcross in that time frame though. They will have gotten pretty darned tight by then.

My goal is to be able to go 15 - 20 years without an outcross. I can work a bird or two in on the side between now and then.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I've read introducing new blood from the same line bred generations apart is better than introducing blood from a outside line. In example my sandhill white giants are a closed flock Golda Miller line. I found a breeder who has also bred this line closed flock for decades. I've thought about getting some of his birds to add to mine. I'm very early into this breed, haven't even hatched any out yet so I don't think it will put me back, lol. Right now I just need to get numbers on the ground come spring.
Any thoughts on this, crossing in blood from the same line bred generations apart?

Ok, obviously these are your birds, your feed bill and your business, but my thoughts are this: Obtaining a pair, (or trio or quad,) from the second breeder is a fabulous opportunity, and I would jump on that like a duck on a June bug! BUT I would breed and hatch those 2 strains separately until you know what to expect from each. That way you can pick complementary breeding partners. Right now, you don't really know what you've got, and it does take a year or two (at least!) to become that familiar with your flock and how they respond to your husbandry methods. If you don't have the pens/barns/infrastructure to keep the strains separate, wait a couple of years to get the second strain, then you can ask the long-time breeder for individuals that complement your flock's shortcomings. It does a great deal more harm than good to overcrowd your birds.

This is what I should have done with my first breed, (Silver Grey Dorkings.) If I manage to build enough pens to maintain and grow out multiple strains, I may go back to that first love, but for now I am working with a variety in much better shape and more easily sourced.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[AnthNDacula]

Hi George,
I've started following this thread and was wondering what breed you keep. I'm sure you've mentioned it but haven't gotten thru the 6000 + posting on this thread yet.
Thanks so much.
Anthony
Near Atlanta GA

 

[varidgerunner]

15 to 20 years without an outcross can become much easier with birds that can lay until they are 10. Longevity has been sacrificed in many programs that have taken many generations to cull out bad traits, or should we say, human defined bad traits. Many generations in a short time frame can get you a long way from where you started.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

...Some of my goals:...

- Heat tolerance is essential where I live ...

- Late sexual maturity will make (anything) easier...

- Good relationship with the flock/potential to be a good leader -...

5. ..Bane ...is my largest male ...He is top of pecking order... Good body type. But I don't think I will end up keeping him ... he is just not all that social with the rest of the flock -...He also started crowing at 9-10 weeks - ...that's not something I want to select for.

If you refuse to do any of those cooling maneuvers, your flock will self-select for heat tolerance, regardless of feathering.

Later sexual maturity means you must keep the juveniles longer to decipher what you are growing out. That will inflate your feed bill and require you to build a great many more pens. I would argue for earlier sexual maturity and calm, peaceable temperaments. Earlier sexual maturity indicates higher vigor, which is probably the single most prized factor in our flocks.

I think you need to be aware that a cockerel's apparent personality is suppressed unless he is the alpha male. A previously peaceful/docile cockerel may become a real psycho when he gets to be top dog. And any bird which is confrontational when not the top bird is likely to become a bigger bully when he is alpha.

The "shape of the growth curve" is just obsessing about your data, not a real-world goal. Nobody eats growth curves. We eat chickens. Just set a goal date or weight, and cull the smallest.

I am not sure what you are considering butchering size. Cornish game hens are just Cornish chicks butchered at a smaller size. If it is at least 1.5 lbs, it is big enough to be a game hen. So no need to keep the runts until they are 6 months old. Twelve-13 weeks is a good age to cull as well, with the butchered birds making great fryers.

Just in case I have been too tactful, KEEP BANE! With his superior size, desired type, early sexual maturity, and peaceable temperament, he sounds ideal to me.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

If you refuse to do any of those cooling maneuvers, your flock will self-select for heat tolerance, regardless of feathering.

Later sexual maturity means you must keep the juveniles longer to decipher what you are growing out. That will inflate your feed bill and require you to build a great many more pens. I would argue for earlier sexual maturity and calm, peaceable temperaments. Earlier sexual maturity indicates higher vigor, which is probably the single most prized factor in our flocks.

I think you need to be aware that a cockerel's apparent personality is suppressed unless he is the alpha male. A previously peaceful/docile cockerel may become a real psycho when he gets to be top dog. And any bird which is confrontational when not the top bird is likely to become a bigger bully when he is alpha.

The "shape of the growth curve" is just obsessing about your data, not a real-world goal. Nobody eats growth curves. We eat chickens. Just set a goal date or weight, and cull the smallest.

I am not sure what you are considering butchering size. Cornish game hens are just Cornish chicks butchered at a smaller size. If it is at least 1.5 lbs, it is big enough to be a game hen. So no need to keep the runts until they are 6 months old. Twelve-13 weeks is a good age to cull as well, with the butchered birds making great fryers.

Just in case I have been too tactful, KEEP BANE! With his superior size, desired type, early sexual maturity, and peaceable temperament, he sounds ideal to me.

Best wishes,
Angela

This is very, very, VERY helpful (esp. behavior - though I also realize that changes over time and in different contexts). Re: "shape of growth curve" I think I really just should have asked "do you think this is hybrid vigor that won't breed through".

It's especially helpful given that I weighed them all before work today, and Bane continues to pull away from the others - good body type and size. He's 4.6 lbs this AM (Tank is 4.2 lbs, Dozer is now 4.3 lbs but all leg).

(Thanks for reading through my CRAZY long post! Boy, that was nuts...)

- Ant Farm

 

[Beer can]

@neopolitancrazy Thanks, that's the plan I'm going to go with. I'll see what I end up with next yr and go from there.

 

[Our Roost]

Getting back to the hard core facts with numbers, lets keep in mind the available space some people just don't have. Not everyone has the appropriate property or space to even be talking about this concept. Flock size and manageability begins to become a serious issue when someone thinks about breeding what I call a backyard of a few chickens. Although I don't discourage any ones ambitions, its only fair to let them know what they can expect from the result of small numbers. I myself could definitely hatch out more birds, but I could not manage that amount. At one time a mentor told me to either go big or go home! In a good way, I completely understand what was meant by that.

 

[hellbender]

Getting back to the hard core facts with numbers, lets keep in mind the available space some people just don't have. Not everyone has the appropriate property or space to even be talking about this concept. Flock size and manageability begins to become a serious issue when someone thinks about breeding what I call a backyard of a few chickens. Although I don't discourage any ones ambitions, its only fair to let them know what they can expect from the result of small numbers. I myself could definitely hatch out more birds, but I could not manage that amount. At one time a mentor told me to either go big or go home! In a good way, I completely understand what was meant by that.

My family and I have more usable room (structures) for chicks/chickens/cocks than many HOBBY farmers but I'm well aware that the fabled 'Chicken Math' could bury us before we even noticed it.

 

[hellbender]

Must be something in the air. We closed down all egg production for market sales several month ago and even put a small ad in the local rag attesting to that fact but starting a couple weeks ago, folks have begun calling us about eggs...now getting 3 to 5 calls per day. I can't see us ever becoming enslaved to that lifestyle again.

I guess we might have to place another ad and have Ariel make a call to a local radio stations that is on for 45 minutes, 5 days a week where locals sell or search for things and there is no charge. I suppose having her nicely say that we no longer sell eggs to the public might help stem the calls but I don't want to have her to say 'WE will NEVER sell eggs again!!!'. One never knows but it would take something apocalyptic to force us back into hawking eggs again.