BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

By the way, I just started my first breeder pen yesterday. It's framed up, and I'll start working out details of how to arrange the equipment, doors, etc. the next time I can work on it. Basically it's a 4'X8' chicken tractor and will integrate into my raised bed garden. The garden is made up of 32 boxes the same size as the pens and the pens will fit directly on top of the boxes. Each pen will shift down the row as crops finish and need cleaning up. There are Easter Eggers in the brooder to test run this system, so it will be ready to receive Dorkings in the spring. If this first pen works, my garden is big enough to handle 8 breeding pens without cutting into my vegetable production. I'm pretty excited to get all this started. It's the first concrete step in my Christmas Capon project. For the last twenty years my layers have been based in a large, communal coop and a moving egg-mobile built out of an old horse trailer. I never had any kind of setup for breeding. Wish me luck.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

...rectal exams...

In the interests of accuracy, birds' anatomy is different from us mammals, with different names. They have a single "exit" orifice referred to as a vent, not an anus (or introitus, or urethra.) They have no rectum or bladder, but a single multipurpose structure known as the cloaca. The digestive, reproductive and urinary systems all empty into the cloaca. You are doing cloacal palpation, not rectal.
Angela
the science nerd

 

[ronott1]

In the interests of accuracy, birds' anatomy is different from us mammals, with different names. They have a single "exit" orifice referred to as a vent, not an anus (or introitus, or urethra.) They have no rectum or bladder, but a single multipurpose structure known as the cloaca. The digestive, reproductive and urinary systems all empty into the cloaca. You are doing cloacal palpation, not rectal.
Angela
the science nerd

There are two tubes the empty to that same spot. You can palpate both the digestive tract and the reproductive tract depending on which one you go down.

See, the oviduct comes in at the end of the rectum and it closed the intestine. There is an opening there so it technically has two openings since the intestine is closed off when an egg is laid:

 

[neopolitancrazy]

.. I figure if they aren't laying every day or every other day when all birds should be laying at their peak, then they most likely won't be laying well at other times of the year either.......it's a practical solution... without investing in a trap nest setup ... for who knows how long ...

... no reason to feed them all winter to get that full year's worth of evaluation...

I resemble these remarks. I have always culled the sick or hormonally challenged livestock as soon as identified. I don't have enough birds on the ground to cull for every thing right now, but in the interests of increasing egg production, I have already begun to cull out smallish eggs and eggs with blood/meat spots. When those traits are conquered, I'll cull the slow-molters, then the late-POLs, then the ones that need winter lights to produce, then tackle the cloacal exams, lol. I originally got into this for the highest quality eggs available, and the project has expanded from there. I never thought I would be violating a chicken's orifice, or giving them "Brazilians."

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[neopolitancrazy]

There are two tubes the empty to that same spot. You can palpate both the digestive tract and the reproductive tract depending on which one you go down.

See, the oviduct comes in at the end of the rectum and it closed the intestine. There is an opening there so it technically has two openings since the intestine is closed off when an egg is laid:

The exact location of the ureteral orifice differs among species of birds, sometimes in the intestine, sometimes the cloaca.

But all 3 systems empty into the cloaca, which empties through the cloacal orifice, or vent.
Angela

 

[gjensen]

Works for me, George. I figure if they aren't laying every day or every other day when all birds should be laying at their peak, then they most likely won't be laying well at other times of the year either....and that has proven true for me time and again. There shouldn't be anything during that time to delay an egg unless it's illness or hormone issues, both of which I cull for, so that gets those birds out of the flock as well.

Short sighted? Maybe to you. To me it's a practical solution to a problem of deciding who to cull or tag for culling without investing in a trap nest setup and trapping those poor birds in a box each day for who knows how long so I can get "accurate" counts for a whole year on each bird. I'm just not set up for that, nor will I ever be, so I have to use methods that work. Also, my free rangers will often not lay if confined to a pen and will pace nervously for days until they are returned to the flock, then will resume laying...can't imagine what being confined to a trap nest would to the poor things.

Unless you've actually applied the method and seen that it doesn't work, you have no hands on experience about it at all, but just more theory. Lot's of theory. I have hands on experience with it over years of use and find it shows me which are the best layers each and every time. Since I don't often cull at the time I tag, but much later in the fall, the birds have all spring and summer in which to prove their laying or lack thereof. Each time that happens, I'm not a bit surprised that those tagged birds pretty much are crappy layers the rest of the year as well. If they are still crappy layers in spring, summer and fall, there's really no reason to feed them all winter to get that full year's worth of evaluation. For me it's held true year after year...a crappy layer in March/April will continue to be a crappy layer all the way to fall culling.

Bee, it is not about you or I. We have learned enough along the way to have figured out that we cannot evaluate a layer in two weeks. Your method has no way to verify the results. You claimed that you have never killed a good layer. You do not know. She is dead.

Do as you please. Again, respectfully, I hope that the general audience does not think they can determine their best and worst layers in a two week window.

I would not recommend fingering hens for two weeks as a method to evaluate them. Now if it was recommended to finger them over an entire laying cycle, I could not say anything contrary. That would be about as informed as a trap nested hen. I guess.

ETA: No, you do not have to wait until the end of the year to remove some of the poorest layers. Over the course of the year, the bottom % becomes apparent. No one had claimed that waiting that long is necessary to identify the bottom. It is that we will not come to that conclusion in a two week window. That is not enough Bee. It does require, however, the entire cycle to determine the top %.

 

[gjensen]

I will say again. Two weeks is not enough time to evaluate a layer. Too many things can interrupt a laying cycle. We do not have our birds in sterile environments. Any change or stressor can be a factor. Many things known and unknown.

Think about it. Is a two week window enough in a 52 week period? Even statistically that is not enough, and that would not be including the misc. variables that would have to be taken into account.

 

[DesertChic]

I have heard/read something like that from Joel Salatin as well. But I had decided I didn't want to have them outdoors and fight the fight with regard to temperature - bucks will go sterile in heat (the temperature quoted is usually about 85F where they begin to be affected). It's over 85F sometimes in DECEMBER here. And it gets really really hot (rabbit killing hot) here in summer. So I had a non-living space that was still temperature controlled I was going to use. (There's a reason I'm raising Naked Necks!), But yeah, tools.

But it's not JUST that. I've got my hands full with the chickens, not sure I'm quite ready to rush into another type of husbandry yet...

- Ant Farm

I totally understand that. I keep toying with the idea of Muscovy, and now also keeping a pig....but with so many other demands on my time I MUST temper my enthusiasm. As it is, I'll be spending much of today and tomorrow washing 1.5 tons of lava rock for our aquaponics setup. Ugh!

 

[gjensen]

The exact location of the ureteral orifice differs among species of birds, sometimes in the intestine, sometimes the cloaca.

But all 3 systems empty into the cloaca, which empties through the cloacal orifice, or vent.
Angela

This is true for reptiles, amphibians, etc.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

For those of you on the Naked Neck thread, pardon the cross-post.

Everyone's 13 weeks old - weighing day. Let me post this real quick.

Interestingly, several have fallen off this week (I wonder if the stress of the hawk pressure this week would have an effect? Or perhaps that is just what happens at this age). Note Tank - he has really fallen off a lot. He also seems to be delayed in maturity compared to the others, at least to my eye. Comb seems smallish, and oddly, he has very little tail development relative to the other boys. Looks "like a girl" a little bit, to my eye. (I'll try to get an updated photo later. ) In the pecking order he's quite low. Is this just late maturity?

As they get bigger, weighing in gets harder to do, and I always wonder at my accuracy (though usually it can be verified because a given trend continues the following week). To that end, I don't know what's up with Puppy - she actually lost weight per this data point, makes me wonder if that was accurate - it's always a little nuts on weighing day and they often don't sit still. She seems fine (though they can fake that, I know) - I need to check her over more carefully later today, and maybe reweigh. Soon the girls will be able to move into their coop and get some relief from the boys (starting on hardware cloth today), and perhaps their growth will improve then.

Anybody got ideas about why Tank's weights/growth is doing this? Does it change our minds about his merits as a breeder?


- Ant Farm