BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[AnthNDacula]

Quote:

 

[bnjrob]

There is more than one strain of Mareks. There is one that is related to what Turkeys carry, and is the part of a three way vaccine. Otherwise, it is useless against the other strains. It is a false sense of security to believe our Turkeys are protecting our chickens. It is one of those it may or it may not, but do not count on it.

To choose to or not to vaccinate is an individual decision. Once one has been hit hard by one of the more virulent strains (or one of the strains our birds are the most susceptible to), then discuss with them whether or not they should be concerned with it. Many good breeders have been hit very hard by it. Every year, some good breeders have to take drastic action.

It is very misleading to promote the idea that most of the people that have had problems with Mareks loved their chickens too much. How much someone "loves" their birds has no effect on viral transmission. The strain determines how detrimental it is or not.

I do not vaccinate, but I do reserve the right to change my mind. I never will, if I never have to. I have been fortunate, but I realize that I am not immune to having a problem with this disease. None of us are.

The largest factor determining whether or not you will ever experience a virulent strain is determined by the trade of other birds. If you bring in enough birds from other flocks, eventually, you will have a problem. No other factor has more impact. They can get it from wild birds, but the level of exposure is much lower.

I suspect that I have been fortunate, because I am reluctant to do trade in adult birds. I am not saying I will not, or I never have. Only that I do not make a practice of it.

You and I have a lot to lose in our own flocks. We should not think that they are immune to Mareks. They are not. They may show resistance to one strain or another, but they are not immune. Mareks is a moving target. It is ever evolving.

On a number of occasions over the years, you have made the comment that you don't comment on people's posts unless you care and respect a person enough to comment on what they say. Please do me the favor of not respecting me so much . Please block me and don't read anything that I post.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

@gjensen , these are helpful observations and you've given me some things to consider (as always, I listen carefully to all advice, even when I end up not taking it!

). I'm keeping so much data on this group in part to learn - so I can understand how they grow over time, and so that later I can know the key points at which to check. Although I will say that the added benefit is that I get my hands on each bird each week, so no one escapes regular evaluation (including feeling for body type and sussing out any injuries they might otherwise try to hide). I've added a trough feeder in the paddock in addition to the two large feeders in the tractor (it's what I had immediately available). Watched Tank today - he's super timid in approaching the food, even more so than some of the pullets. I haven't observed him getting attacked, but maybe he got in a fight that left him nervous - he did have a deep scratch across his crop area earlier in the week (healing fine). So I do wonder about the food thing, and will add more feeders.

What sort of live weight/dressed weight ratio does one usually get when culling/harvesting? Just curious... I'm planning to do my first culling in a week or two.

- Ant Farm

 

[Beekissed]

Bee, it is not about you or I. We have learned enough along the way to have figured out that we cannot evaluate a layer in two weeks. Your method has no way to verify the results. You claimed that you have never killed a good layer. You do not know. She is dead.

Do as you please. Again, respectfully, I hope that the general audience does not think they can determine their best and worst layers in a two week window.

I would not recommend fingering hens for two weeks as a method to evaluate them. Now if it was recommended to finger them over an entire laying cycle, I could not say anything contrary. That would be about as informed as a trap nested hen. I guess.

ETA: No, you do not have to wait until the end of the year to remove some of the poorest layers. Over the course of the year, the bottom % becomes apparent. No one had claimed that waiting that long is necessary to identify the bottom. It is that we will not come to that conclusion in a two week window. That is not enough Bee. It does require, however, the entire cycle to determine the top %.

Don't know what you are referring to about a two week period....no mention was made about two weeks of any time in any month or year. Must be getting that from somewhere else. And, yes, I know when I've killed a good layer because she's full of eggs in various stages of production when I do so....a poor layer has nothing much in there, a few follicles here and there developing. Anyone who has ever killed a hen that is laying in peak season can recognize the difference between a hen that is laying every day vs. a hen that is most likely laying an egg a week, if any at all. I used to cull in the spring and got the opportunity to see the results of my mistakes but it's the same for when I waited until fall....a good layer is usually back to laying daily by October when I do the fall cull and I'd be finding hens full of eggs when I killed if I went by the usual visual markers of who is laying and who is not.

If you can't recognize these changes on an ovary, I can't very well explain it to you...you'll have to look at each kind of hen to see for yourself. It's hard to explain unless you've actually seen it. I'll try.....one has an ovary that is very fleshy and large with various stages of follicle growth whereas an ovary that is not producing is smaller, harder to the touch and has few follicles that show development. If this hen has been killed during the time of year that ALL hens should be sexually reproductive to the max, her ovary should be fairly bursting with eggs in various stages of growth, not to mention even one in the oviduct, with or without a shell. If killed in the fall when laying well, same thing...hen full of eggs vs. a hen that doesn't look like she's laid in some time.

And, yes, you've stated time and again that a hen has to be evaluated over the full year of her laying to determine if she is a good layer or not. The only time I need to evaluate a hen far into the year is when she's passed the internal exam with flying colors and she continues through her processes of being a chicken~brooding, raising chicks, returning to lay, molting, returning to full laying after molt, etc. Usually I can tell by how well she returns to lay after raising her chicks if she's going to also process normally through a molting session.

And I don't call it "fingering hens", which gives it a very vulgar connotation. It's a simple internal exam of palpating for an egg and it's certainly not done for two weeks time, nor is it done more than once a year during peak laying. No one said that it was to determine the entire year's laying performance, it's to determine which hen is laying RIGHT THEN and frequency of her laying over a three day span. If she is laying with appropriate frequency RIGHT THEN, she is allowed to stay in the flock and prove herself for the rest of the year. If she is not laying with good frequency RIGHT THEN~during a time of year when ALL chickens should be laying their best~then she is marked for culling in the fall. With this system, I've never seen a bird marked for culling suddenly surprise me by returning to frequent laying and laying steadily throughout the year from then on. They invariably prove my initial exam was accurate and are summarily dispatched in the fall.

And thank you for allowing me to do as I please...it's most reassuring that I'm allowed to do so now, having been given permission to do so....though I can't imagine why I'd need permission.

For the record, someone asked me how I check to see who is laying and who is not...this does not mean I am touting my method to all and sundry as the way to go, it's merely how I do it. I really and truly do not care what people do with that information, nor do I feel like I'm misleading the masses by revealing my method. It's a take it or leave it situation.

 

[Beekissed]

Chickens that are kept around turkeys can build up resistance because the turkey herpes virus is similar enough to Marek's that it offers the chickens some immunity to Marek's. Most people that I know do not worry about Marek's. If you have a bird that gets it and they recover, then great, if they die, then their immune system was obviously not able to fight it off. And generally when one bird is exposed to a disease, all the rest are exposed also and are building up immunity that you can't see. They can build up immunity even if none if the flock show signs of Marek's - you just have no idea what germs your chickens are exposed to and what kind of immunity your chickens are building up - which is why it is good to have them exposed to things instead of trying to keep them in a sterile bubble. The only people that I know that worry about Marek's are backyard pet chicken keepers because the hatcheries play up that they can vaccinate chicks for Marek's and is thus another source of income from people scared to death that their favorite chicken will get Marek's and die.

I consider Marek's to be kinda like chicken pox - kids have been getting chicken pox for eons, and yes, there are some that wind up with complications and become very sick or die. But in the grand scheme of things and the MILLIONS of kids that get chicken pox, the number of kids that actually become seriously ill or die from chicken pox is quite small. But the pharmaceutical companies only give the numbers that sound horrific to parents and the parents become convinced that their kids are going to be the tiny percentage of children that die from chicken pox if they don't get vaccinated, and thus the pharma company has another good income source.

I just read an article yesterday written by a commercial poultry vet that works for Sanderson Farms about biosecurity. It didn't impress me. The article discussed all the disinfection techniques that they use for even vehicles that come onto their farms, and that their workers have to wear special boots and coveralls to avoid introducing *germs* into the flocks. I worry that people are going to think that this is the way they should be raising poultry because the guy that wrote the article is a vet and does poultry work for a living, making him an authoritative source. But what people will forget is that these commercial poultry companies keep their birds in constantly stressful conditions which contribute to a compromised immune system - things like too many birds in one space whether caged or not, lack of access to sunshine, lights for constant year round laying. So of course these birds will have a difficult time fighting off anything that they get exposed to, and with the further *biosecurity* precautions of trying to keep any outside germs from getting introduced to the flock, their immune systems are not going to be well developed to be ready to fight off any germ that does make it through to the flock. This kind of biosecurity is impractical for *regular* poultry keepers who do not/cannot keep their birds in a bubble that is kept as sterile as possible. And it is not a good sustainable practice. Poultry need access to sunlight, dirt, bugs, and germs just like people in order to build a healthy immune system and be able to perpetuate themselves through their offspring for the long haul.

Don't worry about Marek's. Give your birds good care and they will thrive and avoid many of the problems that I see with many backyard chicken keepers. MOst of the people that I see complaining that their birds are sick, are the people that are trying to love their chickens too much, by trying to treat them like a delicate flower instead of livestock, and they inadvertently cause their birds to have lowered immune systems and more prone to illness.

I agree with this 100%. Good post.

As with any animal, bird or human, we are only as healthy as our immune system, so build good immune systems, cull for hardiness, provide healthy living conditions, balanced nutrition and let it go. A strong immune system is the best defense against any and all potential pathogens.

If I was to get an illness in my flock that wiped it out, I still would not change my mind about vaccines and medicines. I'd go back to the basics and see where I went wrong in my husbandry and management methods, but I wouldn't resort to the crutch of medicines and think that was the answer.

 

[stryker]

Bee,
Do you band or Mark the birds during your exam time or how do you keep track of the hens?

 

[Beer can]

Has anybody designed a good RFID tag and reader system lately? I'm thinking that would be the easiest way to go (labour wise) to identify the best layers. It could be hooked up to a system that identifies the egg too- haven't figured that one out yet. There was a thread on this site from a year or two ago,  but a lot happens in the computer world in a year. I know very little about computers but it seems like it would be do- able.

I imagine the chip they use for dogs would work, even just attached to a leg instead of implanted. We got our last pup at a shelter, purchased online. When we picked it up they used a hand held scanner checked each pup and picked up ours, had the sex, name, our name and address telephone number programed in it. I imagine something like that would come in handy, don't know the cost though...

 

[Beer can]

I like Sandhill's thought on mareks;

3. We do not have climate controlled pens and, therefore, our birds are subjected to the true rigors of the environment. They are provided dry, fresh bedding and, of course, are always provided with fresh water and food. We firmly believe that the importance of survival of a breed is dependent upon its ability to survive and thrive in the outside world. Our goal is to produce birds that can withstand many different environments.
4. We believe our birds are healthier when they are subjected to real world conditions and not isolated from the outside environment. Therefore, our birds are exposed to the outside world, soil, fresh grass, rain, sunshine, and all that is out there. Our goal is to produce birds that will thrive for many generations to come.
5. We do not vaccinate day-old poultry. We do not have Marecks problem here and do not wish to bring the vaccine on the farm. Our goal is to produce birds that can withstand common environmental stresses.
6. We do annual tests on the breeders for pullorum-typhoid and avian influenza. Our goal is to send you the healthiest birds we can.
7. Our replacement breeders during their youth get to run free range in a large orchard and are gathered and selected as winter nears for the desired traits for their particular breed. We do not believe it is proper to raise them in a "plastic bubble" where they do not have access to fresh grass, insects and contact with the outside world. The Avian Influenza outbreak kept publishing more and more information that it is unsafe to raise your birds in contact with nature. I do not think it is realistic or proper to isolate poultry from the natural world. We cannot kill every wild bird to protect our poultry, nor should we. Instead we should select our breeders from the survivors of exposure to the outside world. Our goal is to let nature run its course and only use birds of superior genetics as our brood stock.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I imagine the chip they use for dogs would work, even just attached to a leg instead of implanted. We got our last pup at a shelter, purchased online. When we picked it up they used a hand held scanner checked each pup and picked up ours, had the sex, name, our name and address telephone number programmed in it. I imagine something like that would come in handy, don't know the cost though...

Actually there are already RFID leg bands available (from China of course) at pennies per piece. The readier is the trickier part. I've often thought of a video cam too, but I don't have very many hens and I can tell them apart. Unless there was a way to visually mark each hen, a video wouldn't work with a large flock, but a combination RFID/video system might work well together.

 

[Beekissed]

Bee,
Do you band or Mark the birds during your exam time or how do you keep track of the hens?

Usually those with zip ties on the left leg will be for culling.