BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[hellbender]

I admire creativity and innovation, but for someone to name a first generation cross "Red Java" is pushing some limits. At most it would be a RIR X Java hybrid and would not breed true. Nothing wrong with that as long as you call a duck a duck. I would think you'd need to have a number of generations of true breeding birds to give them a new name.

For the last 5 or so years, perhaps longer, we've been working in old Toggenburg genes into our Saanen dairy goat herd. Saanens are notoriously weak in the rear (pasterns) and the Togg. herd belonging to long-gone Helen Hunt were known for having great strength that balanced out our problems. It is perfectly acceptable to grade-up with dairy goats and we have some excellent American Saanen does, thanks to our efforts.

In fact, I will likely keep a buckling or two (non-registerable) this coming spring because we're out of frozen semen.

 

[bnjrob]

Stop the presses! They've figured it out. Farming causes avian flu outbreaks - not the fact that they have crammed 18,000 birds into one tiny space and kept them so stressed that their immune systems can't fight off anything. My crystal ball says that outlawing not only backyard flocks but backyard gardens, and maybe even commercial farms, is in the future. Soon we'll be living in bio domes eating fake food made from replicating machines and playing with robotic pets. Yes I am being facetious for those that do not know me. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/01/28/study-suggests-farming-aided-mn-bird-flu-outbreak

 

[angry rooster]

headaches are horrid, :-(  I'm fortunate in that I almost never get them- but when I do if I drink lots of water they go away. Any chance you are dehydrated?

Or if you drank too much booze the Cass is the cure so jest drink more

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I have brought that point up before on some "breeding' threads and get told, it will never happen, no way you can breed two birds of different breeds, or one of one and one of another, and get a bird that will meet sop of any breed. I don't know that I believe the circular thinking, but breeders believe it for sure.

My example was of course an exaggeration, but I have heard rumors of a prize winning Wyandotte that was half Rock.

 

[Kassaundra]

My example was of course an exaggeration, but I have heard rumors of a prize winning Wyandotte that was half Rock.

Oh I completely "got" that you were exaggerating for emphasis.

 

[DesertChic]

Stop the presses! They've figured it out. Farming causes avian flu outbreaks - not the fact that they have crammed 18,000 birds into one tiny space and kept them so stressed that their immune systems can't fight off anything. My crystal ball says that outlawing not only backyard flocks but backyard gardens, and maybe even commercial farms, is in the future. Soon we'll be living in bio domes eating fake food made from replicating machines and playing with robotic pets. Yes I am being facetious for those that do not know me. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/01/28/study-suggests-farming-aided-mn-bird-flu-outbreak

I tried reading the article but stopped pretty quickly because I was getting so angry. I despise intentional ignorance.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Certainly you could recreate a breed of chicken thru intensive selection but would that recreation have all the hidden genetic value of the original breed? For example take the Fayoumi which has thrived in the face of Mareks for centuries. (SP?) You might be able to create a bird that looks and even acts like it but would that bird have all the unique genes inherent in the original? The Fayoumi probably has genes we'll never even know about... resistance to any number of diseases that live in the marshes around the Nile River. But when a mosquito travels in a water filled, ballast tank from Egypt to California and starts infecting all the California chickens with an exotic, new strain of Mareks disease, the cure might just be in the original Fayoumi... but not in the recreation.

There have been breeders who say that it's critical that the foundation breeds should be preserved - it would probably be impossible to re- create the Fayoumi or the Dorking. However, it could be possible to "re-create" a facsimile of the Lamona, or the Delaware for example (although they would never be exactly the same as the original of course). And unfortunately it seems that the foundation breeds are in the most trouble. I don't know of anyone who breeds White Faced Spanish, or Campine, only the hatcheries seem to have any at all and I wonder if they are even pure any more. I think the Redcap is headed for extinction........ as well as many others, too soon.
I tried to source some rose combed Anconas,from someone, anyone, anywhere in Canada, no luck. At least Yellow House Farm still has them, White Dorkings too.
If I lived in a warmer climate Fayoumis would definitely be on my must have list. A very interesting breed of Chicken.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

For the last 5 or so years, perhaps longer, we've been working in old Toggenburg genes into our Saanen dairy goat herd. Saanens are notoriously weak in the rear (pasterns) and the Togg. herd belonging to long-gone Helen Hunt were known for having great strength that balanced out our problems. It is perfectly acceptable to grade-up with dairy goats and we have some excellent American Saanen does, thanks to our efforts.

In fact, I will likely keep a buckling or two (non-registerable) this coming spring because we're out of frozen semen.

Hellbender that's a good point, that often gets overlooked- in order to have a vigorous hybrid, two populations of (possibly) less than ideal breeds must be kept.
Sometimes I wonder whether the glowing reports of fantastic production attributed to a new breed (I can think of a few new European chicken breeds) are just the result of hybrid vigour, and will decline as the population gets more inbred.

 

[varidgerunner]

Hellbender that's a good point, that often gets overlooked- in order to have a vigorous hybrid, two populations of (possibly) less than ideal breeds must be kept.
Sometimes I wonder whether the glowing reports of fantastic production attributed to a new breed (I can think of a few new European chicken breeds) are just the result of hybrid vigour, and will decline as the population gets more inbred.

Bingo! I also think you could take this a step further and say that Grandma's RIR and Grandpa's Buckeyes and so on were better than today's because they were still riding the hybrid vigor wave that made them perform so well and become so popular. Crossbreds are a good path to a superior product but the important thing to remember is the importance of maintaining pure lines with which to cross breed from.

Learned from HB- if you need good pasterns you need to go to Helen Hunt for them.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Or if you drank too much booze the Cass is the cure so jest drink more

Angry rooster I've reached the age where I've finally learned that those self- induced types of headaches can be avoided altogether!