BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

[bnjrob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beekissed


I agree, the expectations are greater but I think it's of detriment to the birds in a lot of ways. That constant striving to produce a bigger, quicker maturing meat bird doesn't allow for any considerations to their long term health nor their ability to reproduce normally and maintain fertility.

I think most of the breeders back in that day knew when to quit and that's a valuable gift when it comes to developing the genetics of living creatures. It was important then to actually be able to reproduce reliable and consistent standards in a particular breed and that the breed be hardy and balanced in all ways~good feathering, good health, good fertility, good size and shape, and the ability to pass along those same traits.

All I see people focused on nowadays is "how much do they weigh by such and such an age?"

So true. I'm all about a thrifty bird. There are birds that need improvement - like the ones we have. But that is because the breed we have barely survived the 20th century. And I don't think it was the production that was the problem so much as the *show* qualities - these suckers change a good bit as they age and I think it was the difficulty in getting them to conform to certain SOP appearance qualities that turned the fanciers off of the birds and caused their significant decline in numbers. I don't know how much more we can improve them, but once we reach that goal, then we'll maintain them. But even now, they work well in our farm environment for both meat and eggs.

I think a lot of folks who are trying all these breed criss-crosses in the hopes of getting their ideal bird, still are maintaining a very modern, commercial poultry type mindset - one that is not sustainable for the long haul. It often seems to be more about the power to create something new, than it is to be content with what is available while looking for areas to improve upon and doing so.

 

[Beekissed]

They are much, much cheaper bought as chicks, then raised up by your own self....then you can make as many new ones as you want when those reach maturity. That's the beauty of chickens...you can produce more offspring with that livestock than you can with any other animal, as long as you have an incubator to help you. That's how many breeders get started and then they put their own stamp on what follows.

 

[Beekissed]

So true. I'm all about a thrifty bird. There are birds that need improvement - like the ones we have. But that is because the breed we have barely survived the 20th century. And I don't think it was the production that was the problem so much as the *show* qualities - these suckers change a good bit as they age and I think it was the difficulty in getting them to conform to certain SOP appearance qualities that turned the fanciers off of the birds and caused their significant decline in numbers. I don't know how much more we can improve them, but once we reach that goal, then we'll maintain them. But even now, they work well in our farm environment for both meat and eggs.

I think a lot of folks who are trying all these breed criss-crosses in the hopes of getting their ideal bird, still are maintaining a very modern, commercial poultry type mindset - one that is not sustainable for the long haul. It often seems to be more about the power to create something new, than it is to be content with what is available have while looking for areas to improve upon and doing so.

Truth in every word! I think the quality that is lost is "sustainability". I think the show breeders lost sight of that too, in the quest for standard looks that bring them recognition and money at shows, they lost the fertility and sustainability of the breed along the way. A good few are waking up to that fact....what does it matter to have a good looking bird if it can't reproduce well or live long enough to reproduce like it should? I think those people are going back to the drawing board and broadening the focus of their efforts to include what made those breeds great in the first place...that quality that had the originators of the breed saying, "It's good...I'm finished developing the best bird for meat and eggs/meat/eggs that I can get and still retain the health, fertility, quality of feathering, etc."

It's all about balance. When you get out of balance you get CX birds and sex link layers with expiration dates stamped on their bottoms...that's okay when you are a commercial grower with no thoughts for breeding but merely for turning a profit, but in backyard flocks I don't see the point in producing birds with a short and unhealthy life span.

 

[bnjrob]

Truth in every word! I think the quality that is lost is "sustainability". I think the show breeders lost sight of that too, in the quest for standard looks that bring them recognition and money at shows, they lost the fertility and sustainability of the breed along the way. A good few are waking up to that fact....what does it matter to have a good looking bird if it can't reproduce well or live long enough to reproduce like it should? I think those people are going back to the drawing board and broadening the focus of their efforts to include what made those breeds great in the first place...that quality that had the originators of the breed saying, "It's good...I'm finished developing the best bird for meat and eggs/meat/eggs that I can get and still retain the health, fertility, quality of feathering, etc."

It's all about balance. When you get out of balance you get CX birds and sex link layers with expiration dates stamped on their bottoms...that's okay when you are a commercial grower with no thoughts for breeding but merely for turning a profit, but in backyard flocks I don't see the point in producing birds with a short and unhealthy life span.

That really is my frustration with Big Ag - and that people are buying into their lies. Doesn't matter if we're talking poultry, heirloom vs gmo, or cattle. Sustainability is a huge issue. If you use these modern products, you are stuck going back to the source every time you need to grow a new crop or animal - because these hybrids don't breed true. Some can't even have sex in order to reproduce themselves. And others like these CX birds will die from organ failure before they can do anything besides eat.

Hatcheries have a monopoly on all these modern meat birds and hybrid birds because you can't hatch from them and get the same basic results every single time, for generations. Most people dont' realize that there are actually poultry genetic labs that hold patents on these birds that they get form hatcheries or that it is just a few companies that actually control these poultry genetic databases. GMO farmers can't even save their own seed to plant with the following year. Even if it did reproduce true to itself, which the hybrid seeds don't, if the farmer dares to save seed for the following year, these GMO companies actually file lawsuits against them and bankrupt the farmer. I just heard that it looks like Bayer is now buying Monsanto - talk about an even larger monopoly going on. Not only do these huge corporations treat their food producers like crap, but the larger they get, the more dangerous they are to people that just want a backyard garden and a handful of hens.

If people want to be slaves to these big monopolies, that is their choice. But to have my future held by a bunch of corporations who believe that ridiculously high CEO salaries are more important than the quality of their products and the freedom of choice of the consumer - no thank you.

 

[abbevilleoz]

So what would you guys recommend for families like ours? We've had chickens for years but not for meat, Pets, and eggs. We want good quality, tasty meat that is cost efficient. We've got 25 CX's arriving this week as our first, trial run. If we find that raising chickens for meat is something we want to continue I don't want to spend money at the hatchery. It's a lot cheaper for us to hatch our own. What breed(s) would you recommend for starting this kind of project?

 

[bnjrob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by abbevilleoz

So what would you guys recommend for families like ours? We've had chickens for years but not for meat, Pets, and eggs. We want good quality, tasty meat that is cost efficient. We've got 25 CX's arriving this week as our first, trial run. If we find that raising chickens for meat is something we want to continue I don't want to spend money at the hatchery. It's a lot cheaper for us to hatch our own. What breed(s) would you recommend for starting this kind of project?

A lot of people have specific breeds they recommend - usually because it is breed they particularly like. But I've talked more people OUT of raising the birds we have, than into raising them. Mostly because I find that their expectations for the birds are not realistic for these birds. So I find it difficult to promote one breed over another for specific purposes, because there is just too much variability in everyone's situation.

The term "cost efficient" is not a quantitative term. Everyone has different ideas of what they consider to be cost efficient. And most people don't keep detailed records of exactly how much money (in terms of money spent as well as time spent, including a dollar amount on time spent) they put into their birds and the amount of food they receive in return in terms of dollar value, to even begin to let you see if your idea of cost efficient is the same as theirs.

The biggest factors when raising animals for food is what are your expectations and how much time and money you are willing to put into the birds.

First off, I recommend that if you have not done so, that you keep a food diary for a minimum of a month, preferably longer, and include a *normal* month as well as a special month, like around whatever holidays you celebrate in which food is a factor. Every day, you write down how much meat and eggs that the family eats. How many eggs did you eat? How many eggs did you use to cook with? How many pounds of meat did you use, and what kind of meat? And was it as steaks, wings, breasts, ground meat, sausage? You need to have a good idea of exactly how much of these animal-based products that you use. And if you are starting to use less pre-manufactured products and doing more to make your own, then you'll for sure want to keep track of the items that you are making with meat and eggs as ingredients, not just the main dishes.

Your husbandry, which will also be affected by the amount of cash and time you are willing/able to spend on your birds will also play a significant part in how they produce for you. Some people want their birds to forage completely for their own food. Unless you have large amounts of good quality forage, it's likely that the birds won't lay as well or have as much meat if they just have a small area and/or unimproved forage. If you allow males and females to run together all the time, you may wind up with horny roosters running the meat off of each other and the females. Your birds may not have as much meat if you are only feeding them the lower protein layer feed versus a higher protein feed for meat birds. Feed costs - certified organic/non gmo vs regular feed will play a part in your determination of *cost efficiency*.

Other factors to influence things are how many birds you raise/keep to reach your expectations. Are you wanting to get the most amount of meat in the fewest birds raised/kept, or are you ok with keeping more birds that have less meat per bird to still meat your expectations of pounds of meat? And how soon are you wanting to get that much meat from a bird, 4 months old, 6 months old, 10 months old?

And of course then there is the issue of whether or not you're needing egg laying machines, since most meatier birds aren't going to lay like a small, lightweight laying hen. Are you willing to keep meatier birds that don't lay as often and also some layer breeds to get a lot of eggs or would you prefer to have dual-purpose birds that may require you to keep a larger number of them to meet any meat or egg goals?

And are you planning on breeding for any other characteristics, such as physical appearance in order to meet breed standards so that you may be able to sell bird to a larger customer base that wants to be able to exhibit the birds they buy from you?

No, you don't need to answer these questions here. These are types of questions you need to ask yourself first, before you can narrow things down.

Once you get all of your needs and desires (two different things) written down and quantified, then it can be easier to suggest a breed. But then too, what works for one, may not work for you, and you still may find yourself switching breeds until you either change your expectations, or find one that fits your expectations. I suspect that this is one reason for so many people trying to cross breeds if they aren't trying to satisfy their desire to create something new - they just didn't find the birds that worked for them or they had unrealistic expectations for the birds they chose. And I've run across some people that had unrealistic expectations for ANY breed of poultry and they should just stick to buying meat and eggs at the store. You need to know what you want first and what you're willing to do/spend - then start looking for folks that have a similar situation as you, who have similar goals as you, and then it will be easier to narrow down a type of bird (meat/eggs/dual purpose), and a breed, as well as if you start with hatchery stock or private stock.

 

[Beekissed]

So what would you guys recommend for families like ours? We've had chickens for years but not for meat, Pets, and eggs. We want good quality, tasty meat that is cost efficient. We've got 25 CX's arriving this week as our first, trial run. If we find that raising chickens for meat is something we want to continue I don't want to spend money at the hatchery. It's a lot cheaper for us to hatch our own. What breed(s) would you recommend for starting this kind of project?

If your main interest is meat production, you might try Cornish or Wyandotte, but if wanting both meat and eggs, the Plymouth White Rock or Plymouth Barred Rock will be my pick for sustainable meat production. I find the Rock meat quality to be a cut above the texture and quality of other breeds, surprisingly so....I once thought that chicken was chicken until I tasted the WR cockerels I produced here last year.

 

[abbevilleoz]

Very good points, many of which I've not considered yet. This is simply where I am now. We've got plenty of eggs from our Ameraucanas to meet our needs. We're also adding a new light breed this winter that should be prolific layers. Meat quality is going to be just as, if not more important than cost effectiveness. I'm estimating we would process no more than 150 birds per year if we really got serious about it. I know I want a meat producer that can produce enough eggs for replacements since my other flocks will take care of the eggs. I've got to work on the other points you mentioned.

 

[DesertChic]

So what would you guys recommend for families like ours? We've had chickens for years but not for meat, Pets, and eggs. We want good quality, tasty meat that is cost efficient. We've got 25 CX's arriving this week as our first, trial run. If we find that raising chickens for meat is something we want to continue I don't want to spend money at the hatchery. It's a lot cheaper for us to hatch our own. What breed(s) would you recommend for starting this kind of project?

@bnjrob gave you a positively brilliant response. The originator of this thread, Hellbender, whom I still miss dearly, gave me nearly identical advice when I told him I was ready to "get serious" about being self-sustaining and raising for meat as well as eggs. And since I'm a bit of a data junkie, I quickly determined what it was I was looking for.

Probably one of the biggest challenges you're going to face (if you're anything like me) is the temptation to try every bird that catches your fancy. I started out with 3 hatchery breeds and expanded out from there before finally finding the one I really, really like. For me it's the NN Turken, but I also have a profound appreciation for both White Rocks and Barred Rocks in this climate, but my NN survive the heat with the greatest tolerance and have proven to be the hardiest and most feed efficient birds I've owned. (And I really like how much faster they are to process.) I now maintain a line of "pure" NNs, my best egg & meat production birds, along with an egg laying line and a meat line. My egg layers are often crossed with Ameraucana or EE for colored eggs, Australorps, Barred Rocks, etc. My meat crosses are mixed right now primarily with White Rock, though I plan to introduce some Dark Cornish blood as well. I keep the SOP for the NN close at hand so I can work at improving my pure line as much as possible, but I take more liberties with my other two "experimental" lines.

Probably the best thing I can suggest to you is to stay away from "designer breeds". I hatched Bielefelders and love them dearly for their amazing personalities, but my pure Biels have been a fairly expensive disappointment when it comes to production. Yes, the girls lay HUGE eggs, and my best Biel layers consistently supply me with 4-6 eggs per week during their preferred seasons, but they took forever to start laying (8 months!!!!!) and the ones I butchered, while very tasty, weren't as meaty as I'd expected them to be. These birds are OUTSTANDING pets, both male and female (my 2 Biel roosters are downright snuggly), but in my opinion this is not the uber-production bird they're touted to be...at least not the ones in this country. I suspect the same can be said for such rare designer breeds as the Ayam Cemani, etc.

If I were starting over again with the knowledge I possess now, I would start out with breeder quality of either a heritage breed, or at least a well established U.S. breed. Barred Rocks, Delawares, White Rocks, Dominques, Rhode Island Reds, New Hampshires, Jersey Giants.....a nice long list to choose from, and if you get them from a breeder that truly knows what they're doing, you won't go wrong.

 

[ocap]

interesting comments, thanks to all !!!

Mr. Frank Reese charged a BYC member $10 for a Jersey Giant bought on his farm in Kansas.
.
Mr. Reese has breeds that answer "Which Breed?" very well (my opinion). Jersey Giant, New Hampshire, Plymouth Rock, Rhode Island, Wyandotte, Cornish and Leghorn. It appears that he might have some of these breeds for a sex-link cross such as the Rhode Island White and Leghorn. He has stayed away from the breeds that are on the endangered or "in need of help" list.

I am going to stay away from the "need help" list for my future choices, Brahma was impossible for me to raise successfully and never produced the white meat breast size that my wife desires, the thighs were great.