Breeding for size and color?

[calboy147]

i have somewhat of a mixed flock at this time with predominately a few Buff Brahmas and a few Buff Orpingtons and have found i like the lighter buff color of the orpingtons and the size of my Brahma/Orpington cross rooster. i intend to start a small breeding program to attempt to achieve the largest and lighter most butter creme color possible. If i introduce some White Jersey Giants and possibly Buff Cochin can i expect at some point in the preferably near future expect some XL light buff birds? I am much more familiar with breeding mamals and have heard that chicken genetics do not necessarily work the same. Am wearing myself out looking for and trying to read all pertinente posts so any info will be greatly appreciated.

 

[CastielH]

Stormcrow has a thread that might be an interesting read, it's somewhat similar aiming for a specific color as well as size. Making Lemonade

 

[NatJ]

I am much more familiar with breeding mamals and have heard that chicken genetics do not necessarily work the same. Am wearing myself out looking for and trying to read all pertinente posts so any info will be greatly appreciated.

If you are familiar with mammal genetics, here are some points about how chicken genetics work:

--Females have sex chromosomes ZW, males have ZZ. This means that all sexlinked genes work backwards (as compared with mammals), and that the mother determines the gender of her offspring.
--Basic pigment colors are black and red/gold.
--Some genes control where those colors go on the chicken (more black, more red, lines around the feathers vs. speckles all over, etc.)
--Some genes change the shade of one color or the other (gold to a darker red or a lighter buff shade, black to a gray shade, red to white, black to white, etc.)
--Some genes add a pattern of white to whatever other color there is (mottling adds white dots, barring adds white stripes, recessive white turns the whole bird white.)
--Chickens do have chromosomes in pairs, one inherited from each parent, which matches what you would expect with mammals.

Some specific sources I have found useful when studying chicken genetics:
http://www.kippenjungle.nl/chickengenetics/pdf/Poultry_Genetics_for_Exhibition_Breeders.pdf

http://www.sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page0.html
(This page links to three other pages: basic genetics, specific chicken genes, and a table of chicken genes with brief information about each.)

i have somewhat of a mixed flock at this time with predominately a few Buff Brahmas and a few Buff Orpingtons and have found i like the lighter buff color of the orpingtons and the size of my Brahma/Orpington cross rooster. i intend to start a small breeding program to attempt to achieve the largest and lighter most butter creme color possible. If i introduce some White Jersey Giants and possibly Buff Cochin can i expect at some point in the preferably near future expect some XL light buff birds?

I would not introduce White Jersey Giants. Any Buff chickens should be fine for your project. Cochins will add more foot feathers, so consider whether you want that or not.

You might like playing with the chicken color calculator:
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html

I like to use it to model the effects of genes (just change the dropdown boxes, and the chicken picture changes too.) It has some difficulty with Buff, but will still work to show why certain other colors are not a good choice for your project.

The default genes are marked with + because they are the ones found in the wild Red Jungle Fowl ancestors. The letter abbreviations come from the name of the gene, sometimes in obvious ways and sometimes in ways that seem to make no sense.

The first box in the list has the e-locus genes. That spot ("locus") on the chromosome has at least 5 alleles (different options), although each individual chicken only has two. It starts at e+/e+. A solid Buff chicken, Orpington or otherwise, usually has E^Wh/E^Wh. A Buff Brahma probably has e^b/e^b. A White Jersey Giant should have E/E. If you start changing those genes, you will see that E makes the chicken black all over, while all the other forms cause different color arrangements on females, but most of the males look pretty much alike.

Adding Co (Columbian) will reduce the amount of black, and move it toward the two ends of the chicken. The Columbian color pattern is what Buff Brahmas have. The Columbian pattern will look a bit different on E^Wh than on e^b with real chickens, but the calculator shows it the same for all of them. It at least helps give the general idea.

Adding Db will further reduce the amount of black, and it is probably in the solid Buff breeds. The calculator doesn't show different pictures, but the text next to the picture does say "with less hackle markings" (hackle being the part at the base of the neck, where the Columbian pattern allows some black.)

The next few genes in the list will probably not matter for your project.

A Buff chicken definitely needs the sexlinked s+ (gold) gene, not S (silver, which turns gold to white.) Since gold is recessive, it will breed true as long as all your starting birds have it.. Many black or white chickens have Silver, which is another reason not to introduce those colors.

For a solid Buff chicken, of course the goal is no black at all. It is somewhat common for Buff chickens to have I (called Dominant White), which turns black to white. That means any small bits of black that might otherwise show, become white. Not all buff chickens have this, but some do, so there is a chance of it showing up in your chickens (if you start seeing buff birds with white tails, that will probably mean you have this gene.)

For the actual shade of buff (lighter vs. darker), it is probably easiest to just breed the ones that are most pleasing to you, rather than trying to sort out what combination they may have of Mh (Mahogany), Di (Dilute), Ig (Inhibitor of Gold), Cb (Champagne Blond), or something not on the list. You can certainly play with all of those in the calculator, I just don't think it will help much with breeding the right shade of buff.

I think those are the main genes you need to be aware of for your project. Just avoiding chickens that are all black or all white will do the most good, because that lets you avoid E (Extended Black), and also lets you avoid a bunch of other genes that increase the amount of black on a chicken (since that is obviously not what you want!)

If you can't get buffs as light as you want, you might try crossing a buff rooster to a silver hen such as Columbian Wyandotte, Delaware, Light Brahma, Columbian Rock, or Light Sussex. That will give sexlinks, with gold daughters and silver sons who carry gold. The reason you might try this: many silver chickens have a collection of genes that make gold lighter, because those help make the silver color look whiter too. So this would be a way to possibly add some of those gold-lightening genes to your project. By crossing a gold male to a silver hen, and keeping only daughters, you can won't have any silver birds in future generations (sex linked traits can be helpful if you use them right!)

 

[SourRoses]

If you can't get buffs as light as you want, you might try crossing a buff rooster to a silver hen such as Columbian Wyandotte, Delaware, Light Brahma, Columbian Rock, or Light Sussex. That will give sexlinks, with gold daughters and silver sons who carry gold. The reason you might try this: many silver chickens have a collection of genes that make gold lighter, because those help make the silver color look whiter too. So this would be a way to possibly add some of those gold-lightening genes to your project. By crossing a gold male to a silver hen, and keeping only daughters, you can won't have any silver birds in future generations (sex linked traits can be helpful if you use them right!)

Interesting, thanks!


So, my blonde barred GH chick is probably gold + silver then?

 

[NatJ]

So, my blonde barred GH chick is probably gold + silver then?

It certainly might be, depending on what color the parents are. Does "GH" stand for Genetic Hackle?

 

[calboy147]

Stormcrow has a thread that might be an interesting read, it's somewhat similar aiming for a specific color as well as size. Making Lemonade

Thanks. Started reading today.

 

[calboy147]

If you are familiar with mammal genetics, here are some points about how chicken genetics work:

--Females have sex chromosomes ZW, males have ZZ. This means that all sexlinked genes work backwards (as compared with mammals), and that the mother determines the gender of her offspring.
--Basic pigment colors are black and red/gold.
--Some genes control where those colors go on the chicken (more black, more red, lines around the feathers vs. speckles all over, etc.)
--Some genes change the shade of one color or the other (gold to a darker red or a lighter buff shade, black to a gray shade, red to white, black to white, etc.)
--Some genes add a pattern of white to whatever other color there is (mottling adds white dots, barring adds white stripes, recessive white turns the whole bird white.)
--Chickens do have chromosomes in pairs, one inherited from each parent, which matches what you would expect with mammals.

Some specific sources I have found useful when studying chicken genetics:
http://www.kippenjungle.nl/chickengenetics/pdf/Poultry_Genetics_for_Exhibition_Breeders.pdf

http://www.sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page0.html
(This page links to three other pages: basic genetics, specific chicken genes, and a table of chicken genes with brief information about each.)



I would not introduce White Jersey Giants. Any Buff chickens should be fine for your project. Cochins will add more foot feathers, so consider whether you want that or not.

You might like playing with the chicken color calculator:
http://kippenjungle.nl/chickencalculator.html

I like to use it to model the effects of genes (just change the dropdown boxes, and the chicken picture changes too.) It has some difficulty with Buff, but will still work to show why certain other colors are not a good choice for your project.

The default genes are marked with + because they are the ones found in the wild Red Jungle Fowl ancestors. The letter abbreviations come from the name of the gene, sometimes in obvious ways and sometimes in ways that seem to make no sense.

The first box in the list has the e-locus genes. That spot ("locus") on the chromosome has at least 5 alleles (different options), although each individual chicken only has two. It starts at e+/e+. A solid Buff chicken, Orpington or otherwise, usually has E^Wh/E^Wh. A Buff Brahma probably has e^b/e^b. A White Jersey Giant should have E/E. If you start changing those genes, you will see that E makes the chicken black all over, while all the other forms cause different color arrangements on females, but most of the males look pretty much alike.

Adding Co (Columbian) will reduce the amount of black, and move it toward the two ends of the chicken. The Columbian color pattern is what Buff Brahmas have. The Columbian pattern will look a bit different on E^Wh than on e^b with real chickens, but the calculator shows it the same for all of them. It at least helps give the general idea.

Adding Db will further reduce the amount of black, and it is probably in the solid Buff breeds. The calculator doesn't show different pictures, but the text next to the picture does say "with less hackle markings" (hackle being the part at the base of the neck, where the Columbian pattern allows some black.)

The next few genes in the list will probably not matter for your project.

A Buff chicken definitely needs the sexlinked s+ (gold) gene, not S (silver, which turns gold to white.) Since gold is recessive, it will breed true as long as all your starting birds have it.. Many black or white chickens have Silver, which is another reason not to introduce those colors.

For a solid Buff chicken, of course the goal is no black at all. It is somewhat common for Buff chickens to have I (called Dominant White), which turns black to white. That means any small bits of black that might otherwise show, become white. Not all buff chickens have this, but some do, so there is a chance of it showing up in your chickens (if you start seeing buff birds with white tails, that will probably mean you have this gene.)

For the actual shade of buff (lighter vs. darker), it is probably easiest to just breed the ones that are most pleasing to you, rather than trying to sort out what combination they may have of Mh (Mahogany), Di (Dilute), Ig (Inhibitor of Gold), Cb (Champagne Blond), or something not on the list. You can certainly play with all of those in the calculator, I just don't think it will help much with breeding the right shade of buff.

I think those are the main genes you need to be aware of for your project. Just avoiding chickens that are all black or all white will do the most good, because that lets you avoid E (Extended Black), and also lets you avoid a bunch of other genes that increase the amount of black on a chicken (since that is obviously not what you want!)

If you can't get buffs as light as you want, you might try crossing a buff rooster to a silver hen such as Columbian Wyandotte, Delaware, Light Brahma, Columbian Rock, or Light Sussex. That will give sexlinks, with gold daughters and silver sons who carry gold. The reason you might try this: many silver chickens have a collection of genes that make gold lighter, because those help make the silver color look whiter too. So this would be a way to possibly add some of those gold-lightening genes to your project. By crossing a gold male to a silver hen, and keeping only daughters, you can won't have any silver birds in future generations (sex linked traits can be helpful if you use them right!)

Hory mory! Thanks that should keep me busy for quite some time.

 

[calboy147]

I would not introduce White Jersey Giants. Any Buff chickens should be fine for your project. Cochins will add more foot feathers, so consider whether you want that or not.

What would you suggest if any to increase the general size of the birds. My Buff Brahma/Orpington rooster is half again bigger than his Brahma dad, and i was wanting to see if i can better him for size.

 

[NatJ]

What would you suggest if any to increase the general size of the birds. My Buff Brahma/Orpington rooster is half again bigger than his Brahma dad, and i was wanting to see if i can better him for size.

By general size, do you mean weight? Height? Amount of muscle for meat? A combination?

I would suggest you start by seeing what you already have: weigh the mixed bird and his father, measure how tall they are, feel to see where they are meaty. Feathers can cover many details that you might care about. If you have an Orpington rooster, check him too, for comparison. Then decide which areas you hope to improve, and which areas are already as good as any of the breeds you would consider adding. (For example, if he were already as heavy as a Jersey Giant, there might be no point in breeding one in.)

I would probably start by breeding your big mixed rooster to hens of both breeds, and especially to any sisters who are the same mix as himself. Sometimes crossing breeds will let you combine size genes to get a larger or smaller bird than either original parent (like your rooster.) So if you otherwise like the traits you have, it is probably worth seeing if a few even bigger birds can come from that mix, before you add in something else that might bring other traits you do not want.

As regards buying another breed, be aware that they are not always the size they are "supposed" to be. Tiny breeds are often bigger than the standard says, and giant breeds are often smaller than the standard says. This is especially common with chickens from large hatcheries, but can also happen with chickens from other sources. So if you do buy another breed, you may want to get them as adults so you can see how big they are, or else raise chicks and check their size before actually hatching any offspring from them.

I do not have personal experience with any really big breeds, so I'm not sure which one to recommend. Maybe get a few each of several breeds, raise them up, and compare?

 

[calboy147]

Just primarily overall size. Bigger heavier though i do not raise them for meat or eggs. I like big dogs, I have Saints, 8month old pups 107 and 134 pounds. Big cats, Mane Coon, at 25 pounds. Flemish giant rabbits. Toulouse geese. White Holland turkeys just because they are several inches taller than most and two Jersey Giant simply because they have a huge wingspan. Funny i like small cows.
My goal is to breed some of the largest, light buff chickens possible.
To adorn my property.