Breeding kosher kings

[Jingles1234]

Good info! Good night!

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I wouldn't outcross the Kings. Rather breed on it's own. You may find they are smaller than your desire of meat bird and try another type later.

If you're outbreeding to get "hybrid vigor" then you'll always be outcrossing to maintain it. If you're looking for a self sufficient set up then making a flock that breeds true is probably more to your favor. If the Kings don't hold up maybe Dixie Rainbow (Pioneer) chickens would be better to try as foundation to breed true.

 

[Jingles1234]

Thanks, Egghead! That makes sense. Would that be more in the heritage breed realm?

 

[Egghead_Jr]

No it wouldn't. Dixie Rainbow are right in line with the other slower growing hybrid meat birds like Freedom Ranger, red or black broilers and Kosher Kings. They are all hybrids so do have what's called "hybrid vigor" which leads to faster maturing but the thing is they have all the genetics to get darn close to that while breeding true. It would take a few generations of careful selection for breeders.

 

[dheltzel]

No it wouldn't. Dixie Rainbow are right in line with the other slower growing hybrid meat birds like Freedom Ranger, red or black broilers and Kosher Kings. They are all hybrids so do have what's called "hybrid vigor" which leads to faster maturing but the thing is they have all the genetics to get darn close to that while breeding true. It would take a few generations of careful selection for breeders.

This is correct, and better advice than a need for an outcross. "Hybrid vigor" (more precisely known as heterozygosity) is simply the opposite of inbreeding. We think of inbreeding as the mating of close relatives, and that is true, but it matters greatly where your starting point is. Sibling crosses of hybrids only slightly reduces heterozygosity, at least compared to a pure strain.
So, the result is that you can inbreed the KK's for several generations before you will see much reduction in their performance as meat birds. Careful selection might even see some improvements, there is not the level of genetic selection in these that you see in the Cornish x Rock (CX) crosses because they are of much less commercial importance.
There are people here on BYC that are creating their own lines of non-hybrid meat birds. You've already made the choice for a slower growing, less feed efficient broiler by avoiding the CX chicks, I think you will find breeding your own to be very satisfying and efficient.

 

[GreatBreeder]

I had suggested outcrossing because that makes the bird reach higher efficiency. Although, it would be tedious to constantly have to outcross to maintain it.

If you want a simple heritage breed that reproduces true to type (but won't be as efficient) choose Dorkings or Cornish, both sustainable birds. If you're really patient you'll get a very large carcass from Jersey Giants, but you have to wait about 8-9 months, hens weighing 9-11 lb. and cockerels weighing 11-15 lb.

These are all heritage dual purpose breeds, so to be sustainable you should buy straight run and cull all the cocks but your breeder at slaughter weight.

 

[dheltzel]

I had suggested outcrossing because that makes the bird reach higher efficiency. Although, it would be tedious to constantly have to outcross to maintain it.

I don't believe that is true as a blanket statement. I'm pretty sure crossing a meat-type bird to a welsummer will create a less efficient weight gainer than crossing KK siblings. I bet that the F1's from crossing siblings will be very close to their parents in rate of growth and feed conversion efficiency, but the thing is, no one really has done the experiment, so my advice, like yours, it only theoretical.
Since it's not my time and money on the line, I'm very comfortable recommending the original poster try a sibling cross to produce a next generation of meat birds. I know sibling crosses of commercial layers are as good a producers as the original cross. It's not done commercially because the F2 chicks are not sexable (a HUGE deal with layers) an also because the hatcheries want to market their hybrids as unique. I bet it would take at least 4 or 5 generations to see any sort of reduced productivity.
My genetic interest is more with laying breeds, I don't produce birds for meat, but the principles are the same, and I maintain you gain nothing from an outcross in each generation unless you are also upgrading the genetics, like using a Cornish Cross or Red Ranger.

 

[GreatBreeder]

I don't believe that is true as a blanket statement. I'm pretty sure crossing a meat-type bird to a welsummer will create a less efficient weight gainer than crossing KK siblings. I bet that the F1's from crossing siblings will be very close to their parents in rate of growth and feed conversion efficiency, but the thing is, no one really has done the experiment, so my advice, like yours, it only theoretical.
Since it's not my time and money on the line, I'm very comfortable recommending the original poster try a sibling cross to produce a next generation of meat birds. I know sibling crosses of commercial layers are as good a producers as the original cross. It's not done commercially because the F2 chicks are not sexable (a HUGE deal with layers) an also because the hatcheries want to market their hybrids as unique. I bet it would take at least 4 or 5 generations to see any sort of reduced productivity.
My genetic interest is more with laying breeds, I don't produce birds for meat, but the principles are the same, and I maintain you gain nothing from an outcross in each generation unless you are also upgrading the genetics, like using a Cornish Cross or Red Ranger.

I was not prioritizing the Welsummers, just said that from his flock that would be his best option, but Cornish or Dorkings would work better.

He could also use Cornish X like you said as breeding stock if he restricts the feed

 

[Omega Blue Farms]

I wouldn't worry too much about outcrossing to maintain hybrid vigour. I've been breeding from Sasso x431b and Nova Browns and will be hatching from Kosher Kings later this fall. I have found the F2 and 1st backcross to the F1 to be every bit as vigorous as the original F1 parent stock. The only difference between the chicks I've produced and the original chicks I purchased has been the diversity of size. Body conformation has remained consistent. I still process at 12 weeks.

I did a test cross putting a Sasso rooster on some Nova Brown Hens, Ameraucana hens, and an Ameraucana rooster on some Sasso hens. I am suprised to observe that all have similar growth rates. Fully expected the Ameraucana crosses to be slower growing.

What is key is picking the right parents and then not overfeeding. When looking for breeders, I look for birds that seem balanced and have a nice clean stride, good strong stance, and feel really nice (good fleshing) when held. I feed my breeders at night and provide 35 grams of breeder/premium layer feed per kg live weight. Hubbard website has some great breeder/parent stock management guides which can help.

 

[GreatBreeder]

True true. With proper care you can breed Cornish Rocks. Someone here crossed cx with br.